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World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

theguardian.com

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Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#121

Post by kempbellt »

netrus wrote: post #114
kempbellt wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Vegans don't face any such dilemma. This is such hand-wavy bullshit. It's such a lazy response to OPs point... Are humans animals? If so, should we not consume the products that humans create, in order to achieve perfect veganism? And if people are not animals, and I'm feeling a bit hungry........? The computer or phone you used to post your comment is an animal product. Unless, yet again, we consider humans to be…

That's such a strange way to argue. We use heuristics all the time. As I said elsewhere, the farmer is not a slave, that changes the equation. If all salads were made by slaves, beef might be the ethical superior choice. But it isn't. If you find someone who wants you do eat them: I guess that's fine? You cannot li ve 100% without harming animals - so it is cognitive dissonance to call for ending 95% of animal suffer…

The cognitive dissonance is the perfectionist idealism of veganism, and the assumed "ethical superiority" that constantly gets thrown around while taking zero constructive criticism that the people promoting it are in fact, living at complete odds with it.

It's like beating your children to try and instill core values that abuse is bad. "Don't hit, Timmy. Hitting is bad! I'm going to spank you to get my point across."

OP made a good point about the imperfections of idealistic veganism and it was dismissed with a, "Nope. This isn't a thing. Our ideals are perfectly defined. You are the problem", which goes directly against the belief that one's ideals are perfectly defined if someone is questioning holes in the definition - i.e, cognitive dissonance...

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#122

Post by grawprog »

war1025 wrote: post #120
grawprog wrote: post #115

So, they're still culling fertilized eggs with males, they just do it before they hatch now. I guess it's a little more visually appealing to the public, but it literally changes nothing. The same number of chickens are still culled, they still get turned into animal feed. Honestly, what difference does it really make if male chickens are shredded and ground up into feed pre or post hatching? It's the same result in…

It's the whole abortion vs infanticide debate. People almost universally feel that infanticide is wrong. Abortion for whatever reason is easier for people to stomach. Basically it's easier for people to feel good about preventing an embryo from turning into a cute little baby than it is for them to immediately kill that cute little baby once it's born.

It's not though, we're talking about chickens that are for the most part destined to live in a cage and end up on someone's plate.

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#123

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

eplanit wrote: post #67
slothtrop wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing's ever enough for vegans. > Would be more interested in seeing more means of producing tasty food without using animals and at reduced costs to the environment. There is increasingly more of that all the time. > On the other hand it just seems like another step into the direction of turning the chickens into optimized food machines. Another step? They aren't getting any more optimized, if anything new availab…

Soon Jainism will become popular, is my prediction. Someone will package twigs and leaves as a Jainist snack pack and make a fortune.... I'd better get started! /s

VC pitch: We'll make money on the supplements our customers have to take.

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#124

Post by war1025 »

grawprog wrote: post #122
war1025 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the whole abortion vs infanticide debate. People almost universally feel that infanticide is wrong. Abortion for whatever reason is easier for people to stomach. Basically it's easier for people to feel good about preventing an embryo from turning into a cute little baby than it is for them to immediately kill that cute little baby once it's born.

It's not though, we're talking about chickens that are for the most part destined to live in a cage and end up on someone's plate.

It's the same instinct at play, in my opinion.

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#125

Post by bayindirh »

JacobSuperslav wrote: post #82
wpietri wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nothing's ever enough for vegans. That's a weird complaint on a site about eternal disruption, eternal improvement of things that are basically fine already. I'm an omnivore, and I'm comfortable with it. But that doesn't keep me from recognizing the ethical issues with killing and controlling other beings to survive. I really appreciate people pushing the envelope on this. If I could eat basically the same diet but…

Hacker News, where technology > empathy

I value ethics and empathy deeply but, I don't understand vegans and vegetarians.

Their biggest line of defense is "animals are alive and they have feelings and senses, we abuse them for food". That's sadly right. And they implicitly say that "eating plants are OK because, plants are not animals and they're just happen to grow. They don't feel, they don't understand".

On the contrary, there's a growing mountain of research revealing that plants can communicate, issue warnings about diseases and bug infestations. They so-called get stressed when it rains, and their metabolisms startle during fast light changes (like eclipses). More shockingly, they release all the nutrients they store when they sense they're going to die, so other plants can thrive from their remains and nutrient stocks (writing this really moves me).

This is complete opposite of "plants are well, just alive wood" hypothesis. When I share this research with vegans and vegetarians, their response is: crickets.

Moreover, most hardcore ones suggest that we don't ever need meat to thrive or live a healthy life however, we've evolved that far because we consumed meat. Meat made us and, same people are ignorant of this fact.

I can understand that we need to grow these animals more ethically. This is why I always try to buy ethically produced food. I understand that these animals are adding great amounts of greenhouse gases. I can understand that we may live well with less meat. However, we need to understand, some of these animals are evolved under our reign and they may not survive outside farms for long. The cattle are grass puppies now and are essentially "useful pets". We need to understand where we are to move forward. Ignorance and fight won't take us anywhere. We need to talk openly and need to put our prejudice aside. We need to learn and understand first.

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#127

Post by kaycebasques »

slothtrop wrote: post #113
kaycebasques wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nothing's ever enough for vegans. No need for a blanket prejudiced statement like this.

I'll rescind it the day I see a vegan suggest there is such a thing as ethical meat/egg consumption. It will never happen.

I don't have a problem with someone who raises a chicken, uses the chicken's natural existence to improve the local environment (fertilizer, etc.), lets that chicken have a life similar to its life in nature, and gives it a lifespan that isn't dramatically shorter than what it experiences in nature. Eating that chicken and its eggs seems fine to me because that seems like a mutualistic relationship. Asking me to endorse factory farming is tough because it provides literally none of those things, all of which seem like pretty reasonable definitions of a decent life for a creature. If you can verify that the chicken/eggs you bought came from that situation, I don't have a problem with that. I know a lot of brands claim an image like this, but let's be honest, no one is verifying that before purchasing because we know it's probably not true.

In other words, I am a vegan, and I just suggested a situation of ethical meat/egg consumption. As I said before, I think you're prejudiced towards vegans and don't really understand what we're about. I suggest listening more to what vegans have to say about veganism rather than what meateaters have to say about it.

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#128

Post by soperj »

wpietri wrote: post #78
slothtrop wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing's ever enough for vegans. > Would be more interested in seeing more means of producing tasty food without using animals and at reduced costs to the environment. There is increasingly more of that all the time. > On the other hand it just seems like another step into the direction of turning the chickens into optimized food machines. Another step? They aren't getting any more optimized, if anything new availab…

> Nothing's ever enough for vegans. That's a weird complaint on a site about eternal disruption, eternal improvement of things that are basically fine already. I'm an omnivore, and I'm comfortable with it. But that doesn't keep me from recognizing the ethical issues with killing and controlling other beings to survive. I really appreciate people pushing the envelope on this. If I could eat basically the same diet but…

>But that doesn't keep me from recognizing the ethical issues with killing and controlling other beings to survive.

Does that include plants?

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#129

Post by grawprog »

war1025 wrote: post #124
grawprog wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not though, we're talking about chickens that are for the most part destined to live in a cage and end up on someone's plate.

It's the same instinct at play, in my opinion.

Sure, doesn't mean it's anything other than something to make people feel better while changing nothing.

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#130

Post by trianglem »

noxer wrote: post #126

Are we just gonna ignore the fact that there definitely is a living chicken inside the egg after 9 days. Sure its probably better kill it as early as possible but "no-kill" is simply a lie. source: https://youtu.be/uE0uKvUbcfw?t=389

It’s the abortion debate but with chickens.
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