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GitHub Certifications (Beta)

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Re: GitHub Certifications (Beta)

#121
post #97
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank god most of the non-corporate software industry regards certifications as a way to pad a non-impressive resume and not something actually valuable.

Why is it certificates are viewed this way and degrees are not? Is it a class thing? Or are there really just no good certificates.

There's a growing sentiment that degrees are the same; it's certainly not the prevailing view.

One part, in my view, is the exceptionally temporary nature of a certificate. A degree typically teaches things that are fairly static.

If you're a biologist, I would expect 90% of the things you learned in college to still be true, or mostly true, when you retire. A certificate, on the other hand, validates that you know this particular thing well, until the next version comes out. Depending on what "thing" is, and when the last version was released, it could be less than a year. So even if I accept that the certificate does mean you know this system really really well, it doesn't mean that's true for very long.

They're also an external validation of your skills, so people who aren't confident in their skills will often mention their certificate when they feel their skills are being challenged. I think this creates a bias in how we view certificate holders. I've noticed the same thing with people who have degrees from prestigious institutions. I've got a bad taste in my mouth from MIT because most of the people who went to MIT and I'm aware that they went to MIT like to bring it up when they don't feel confident. That's not to say everyone who went to MIT is like that; the rest just don't feel the need to constantly mention it, so I don't even know.

They're typically multiple choice as well, which are much easier to fake understanding on. "Which network architecture accommodates X best?" is probably going to be easier to answer than "You have a network with X servers that need Y bandwidth, etc, etc, explain what network architecture you would choose, and why."

And lastly, I think there's a certain sense of derision for certificates for things created in our lifetime. Things that came before us have a sense of tradition that gives them a sense of legitimacy. Of course your accountant needs a degree, they've always had degrees. New things don't have that, so you have to justify why a certification is necessary, and most don't meet the bar. Everyone managed to use GitHub just fine without a certification.

Re: GitHub Certifications (Beta)

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally dislike tests that are multiple choice. It loads the mind with (sometimes obviously) false data that must be rejected and the ability to pattern match on word usage or even guessing between answers that haven't been eliminated means that the instructor never really knows if the person actually knew the answer and neither does the student. When I used to participate in math contests I'd go out of my way n…

You're completely right, the testing method is likely very linked to why this is an ineffective way of deciding someone's qualification. I think multiple choice exams can be a good way – a physics exam I took was multiple choice, and so because the examiners were "giving you the answers", they took it as an opportunity to ask really out-there questions. They would frequently take two wildly different aspects of the p…

Long form answers (and college courses in general) are graded relative to your peers, whereas certificates aren't, which creates a huge difference. Even long form answers that aren't actually bell curved at the end, the person grading it has still read the best answers and the worst answers, and they're probably going to grade relative to that.

That precludes having studied "enough". "Enough" is measured relative to your peers, not to how hard the exam is. As long as someone else is studying, "enough" is a moving target. On a certification, I can check out how hard the exam is and study just enough to pass it. If I know for a fact that the exam isn't going to test comprehension, just recall, and that I'm not going to fail because someone else studied enough to comprehend, it makes sense to just memorize the recall portions.

Certifications would do better if they went the same way. For each group of people taking the test, curve the test so that some minimum, fixed percentage of them fail. Let's say it's 20%; so for every group of 100 people taking the test, at least 20 of them will fail (although it could be more if you set a floor on the lowest score you will allow to pass). Even if the exam doesn't test comprehension, I'm willing to bet that most people would pick it up just through studying.

Re: GitHub Certifications (Beta)

#123

Ugh, this has Microsoft's playbook written all over it. Introduce a certification, thus increasing the gap between developers who (had their employee) pay Microsoft and developers that didn't. Conflate a generic concept (Git in this case) with Microsoft's specific implementation (Github), muddying the difference in managers' lexicons. Attempt to set Github as a standard to reach in everyone's mind. I mean there's a c…

> Introduce a certification, thus increasing the gap between developers who (had their employee) pay Microsoft and developers that didn't. Did anyone ever take Microsoft's "Microsoft Certified Application Developer" or "Microsoft Certified Solutions Architect" titles seriously? I was still in high-school when I heard about it. I asked some SWE friends of mine who told me that they didn't take it seriously due to the…

For some OEMs - access to purchasing, support, manuals, firmware images, configuration tools, etc. is gated behind "Certified Partner" programs. For an organization to be a Certified Partner at a certain tier, it must have some number of FTEs holding a specific cert.

A good certified partner won't hire you just because you have the cert, but it saves them the trouble of having to get it for you.

This kind of thing is uncommon in Github world, but very common in Microsoft/Azure world.

Re: GitHub Certifications (Beta)

#124

Ugh, this has Microsoft's playbook written all over it. Introduce a certification, thus increasing the gap between developers who (had their employee) pay Microsoft and developers that didn't. Conflate a generic concept (Git in this case) with Microsoft's specific implementation (Github), muddying the difference in managers' lexicons. Attempt to set Github as a standard to reach in everyone's mind. I mean there's a c…

> Conflate a generic concept (Git in this case) with Microsoft's specific implementation (Github)

Github has been intentionally conflating git with github for their own gain since way before Microsoft ever conceived of the notion of buying them.

A year or so before the acquisition, one of my Microsoft coworkers asked if I'd gotten approval to post our internal code on github. What I had actually done was put some of our testing code which was, for all intents and purposes, not under version control, into a git repo hosted by an internal platform.

Re: GitHub Certifications (Beta)

#125
post #97
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank god most of the non-corporate software industry regards certifications as a way to pad a non-impressive resume and not something actually valuable.

Why is it certificates are viewed this way and degrees are not? Is it a class thing? Or are there really just no good certificates.

Honestly, what I look for when hiring is:

previous experience/internships at good companies that I know have solid engineering and/or CS/Engineering degree from a school I trust.

In my mind, bootcamps, certs and micro-degrees often signal someone was unable to enter the field due to a lack of qualifications. Most of them are pretty much rote memorization of commercial products, so fairly low value, or 'one trick ponies' where they know how to create a web app with one and only one tech stack (by copy-pasting templates!).

Really, I expect anyone with a good degree or previous experience to just be able to read git and GitHub's manuals and get it.

Re: GitHub Certifications (Beta)

#126
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Introduce a certification, thus increasing the gap between developers who (had their employee) pay Microsoft and developers that didn't. Did anyone ever take Microsoft's "Microsoft Certified Application Developer" or "Microsoft Certified Solutions Architect" titles seriously? I was still in high-school when I heard about it. I asked some SWE friends of mine who told me that they didn't take it seriously due to the…

I got an MCAD once because my employer was offering it for free. This was so they could secure a "partner" status and get a license discount. That's mostly why people bothered with it. It was completely no use whatsoever. In fact looking back the contents were stupid and dangerous.

> dangerous

Curious to hear more.

Re: GitHub Certifications (Beta)

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Introduce a certification, thus increasing the gap between developers who (had their employee) pay Microsoft and developers that didn't. Did anyone ever take Microsoft's "Microsoft Certified Application Developer" or "Microsoft Certified Solutions Architect" titles seriously? I was still in high-school when I heard about it. I asked some SWE friends of mine who told me that they didn't take it seriously due to the…

For some OEMs - access to purchasing, support, manuals, firmware images, configuration tools, etc. is gated behind "Certified Partner" programs. For an organization to be a Certified Partner at a certain tier, it must have some number of FTEs holding a specific cert. A good certified partner won't hire you just because you have the cert, but it saves them the trouble of having to get it for you. This kind of thing is…

> This kind of thing is uncommon in Github world, but very common in Microsoft/Azure world.

What exclusive materials or advantages do Microsoft "Partner" companies have thesedays? MS is very good at making available their documentation, and almost all of their modern stuff (.NET Core, etc) is developed openly on GitHub.

But other companies that aren't as engineering-driven like SAP, Oracle, yeah - I can see them doing that.

The only advantage I can think of is one of cross-promotion or referrals from Microsoft's own consulting division. (I'll admit I have no idea who MS's Consulting customers are - I thought everyone went with Accenture, IBM, Capita or Atos).

Re: GitHub Certifications (Beta)

#129
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What type of discrimination? In SEA I see "Male Only" on programmer jobs not that infrequently, plus very often age requirements explicitly stated for all sorts of jobs.

> age requirements I'm curious: minimum or maximum?

Maximum, I saw a couple the other day -- 33 and 45. As a 32 year old I didn't feel too encouraged by that!
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