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We Tested Comma AI's OpenPilot

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Re: We Tested Comma AI's OpenPilot

#121

Post by bipson »

jinzo wrote: post #39
bipson wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because that means not only you (the owner) can do it. Also (caution, tangent): MCUs in cars is one of the systems where I want more encryption/signing and less hacking - especially for owners. Foremost to get rid of all the chip-tuned soot sources I am constanly driving behind. The manufacturer knows how to control the engine, the random idiot with a laptop in 95% of the cases does more harm then good. If the manufa…

I really wish to know where you live that the quality of chip-tunin is so bad. In developed world (EU), the owners are accountable for their vehicles. Including emission controls. But the problem is on the enforcing side, from the people actually doing the enforcing to the (un)avability of appropriate measuring devices that are able to detect the prescribed levels. EDIT: As I saw that you are from AT. You do know tha…

There is no such thing as high quality chip tuning, unless you are replicating 100% what the manufacturer just disabled for your MCU (e.g. unlocking some kW your motor is in principle capable of outputting). But then again, e.g. BMW uses different, more reliable mechanic parts (camshaft, head, etc.) on motors that have these kWs unlocked, so you are still risking ruining your motor in the long run.

Chip tuning always meddles with curves the manufacturer chose after long consideration and extensive tests (let's just ignore VW for a moment) - and you are trying to tell me that guy from this shop just "knows better" and "sure, this will be better in every possible aspect"?

Are you trying to say a 2019 BMW out of factory will shoot out black smoke while accelerating (quite boringly) from a traffic light?

Re: We Tested Comma AI's OpenPilot

#122

Post by agumonkey »

raziel2p wrote: post #3

The most surprising part about this to me is that there seems to be a somewhat standardized computer interface for controlling cars with an external device. I would never have guessed that, I thought for sure every maker would come up with their own unique design and require you to buy adapters or whatnot.

the engine i'm not surprised, the wheel I am.. I thought powered steering was only amplifying, not fully controlling.

Re: We Tested Comma AI's OpenPilot

#123

Post by wtetzner »

shiftpgdn wrote: post #117
azinman2 wrote: post #115

L4/L5 or crash. Anything below is dangerous because of the propensity for humans to rely on what seems to be working the majority of the time and artificially trust it, especially with a population trained to need to check their phones. We saw this with the infamous Uber training driver crash in AZ, we saw this with the Apple employee in the Tesla, and we'll continue to see this over and over again until we can final…

Nonsense. Airplanes can do 99.9% of their flying without human intervention, but we don't hear about planes slamming into mountain sides because a pilot was texting or browsing the internet. The problem is any idiot can get a drivers license that let's them pilot around a 5000lb steel cube for about $200 and 20 hours of training time. And punishments are extremely lax for when mistakes are made.

>Nonsense

> The problem is any idiot can get a drivers license that let's them pilot around a 5000lb steel cube

I don't see how it's nonsense, given that the driver's license problem isn't going to be solved any time soon. The problem is that our society practically requires basically everyone to be able to drive to function, unless you happen to live in one of the relatively rare places with good public transportation.

Re: We Tested Comma AI's OpenPilot

#124

Post by xiphias2 »

matz1 wrote: post #102
shiftpgdn wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only manufacturer who is doing better than Comma is Tesla. Every single manufacturer (including Audi and Cadillac) are years behind Comma in terms of performance.

Then why don't manufacturer just use openpilot ? afaik its free and the code is in the github.

I guess the trained models themselves are not free,

But George is selling it fir the same price to them as well, they just don’t want to rely on him.

Re: We Tested Comma AI's OpenPilot

#125

Post by RandallBrown »

shiftpgdn wrote: post #94
woeirua wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a Subaru with Eyesight, not a Toyota. But my point was more so that one of the most popular car manufacturers is giving away a system that is probably 70% as good as OpenPilot. Those videos didn't really change my mind. I'm not convinced at all that it's really that much better on the highway. It's definitely better for non-highway driving, but it also had a few disengagements that he had to intervene for. Loo…

I have a 2019 Subaru with Eyesight. The system isn't half as good as you think it is. The comma system is seriously so far ahead in regards to LKAS (lane centering, cornering, etc) than Subaru's eyesight system.

They never said Subaru's system was as good as Comma's. They were talking about Toyota's.

It was a bit confusing because they don't own a Toyota, but they do own a Subaru.

Re: We Tested Comma AI's OpenPilot

#126

Post by dzhiurgis »

ezconnect wrote: post #70
bipson wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is actually concerning that you can inject false sensor data this easily. I mean, sure, the messages on the CAN will not be encrypted or signed in any way, I know, but still...

It's not yet concerning since you need to hardwire to the custom serial bus of modern car to have access to steering and cruise control systems. What's concerning is the trend started by Tesla that remotely disables your car.

It would be quite concerning if they disabled cars based by “our automated systems detected breach of community rules” without ability to dispute it in future.

Right now disabling car after violent crash looks like obvious security feature that every car (especially electric).

Re: We Tested Comma AI's OpenPilot

#127

Post by jacquesm »

yardie wrote: post #34
ezconnect wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CAN bus is the standard physical interface. What is not standard is the message being passed, so each car will have it's own message for car information. What surprised me about OpenPilot is how some of the electric steering system can be tricked into turning using false sensor data. It's actually amazing that almost all cars now can be driven by software the only thing missing are more accurate and complicated senso…

This is actually quite common with aftermarket tuning for the past decade. Traditional ECU tuning you replace your car's ECU with one with a modified (chipped) ECU. Now, there are bolt-ons that connect through the OBDII port. They modify shift points, change timings, and air fuel mix ratios. And do this without voiding the warranty. [0] https://www.racechip.us/

But that probably will void your MOT and your CO2 rating which in some places can get you in very hot water (or might lead to insurance not paying out in case of accident if the specs are an x% better than they were before the mod).

Re: We Tested Comma AI's OpenPilot

#128

Post by ska »

bipson wrote: post #121
jinzo wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really wish to know where you live that the quality of chip-tunin is so bad. In developed world (EU), the owners are accountable for their vehicles. Including emission controls. But the problem is on the enforcing side, from the people actually doing the enforcing to the (un)avability of appropriate measuring devices that are able to detect the prescribed levels. EDIT: As I saw that you are from AT. You do know tha…

There is no such thing as high quality chip tuning , unless you are replicating 100% what the manufacturer just disabled for your MCU (e.g. unlocking some kW your motor is in principle capable of outputting). But then again, e.g. BMW uses different, more reliable mechanic parts (camshaft, head, etc.) on motors that have these kWs unlocked, so you are still risking ruining your motor in the long run. Chip tuning alway…

I think you are missing the point; perhaps there are bunch of kids just fiddling with their ECU on an otherwise stock car where you live.

In my experience though, tuning is mostly done in conjunction with changing other parts (headers, ports, cams, add a turbo, fuel kit etc.) so the manufacturers long consideration of the best balance for the stock engine is no longer relevant. You have to retune to get proper performance; fair that tuners are rarely considering emissions like the manufacturer would, but changing the airflow characteristics without changing the tune is a bad idea...

Re: We Tested Comma AI's OpenPilot

#129

Post by KentLane »

meowface wrote: post #110
arc0 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He streams on Youtube/Twitch fairly regularly, just from watching it is totally obvious that he is a genius-level programmer. The speed with which he reads and comprehends academic papers is incredibly impressive.

I watch and very much enjoy his Twitch streams, and he's definitely and obviously very intelligent, but I'd say not necessarily more than a top ~70th percentile HN commenter who works in software engineering. I don't think he's necessarily a genius, but just super curious and motivated and confident in his ability to learn anything if he dedicates enough time and practice. You can see his learning and motivation proc…

Hotz won CSAW singlehanded, a one-man team against multi-person teams. And he won by an enormous margin. He is clearly way above the 70th percentile.

Re: We Tested Comma AI's OpenPilot

#130

Post by netsharc »

dheera wrote: post #113
bipson wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because that means not only you (the owner) can do it. Also (caution, tangent): MCUs in cars is one of the systems where I want more encryption/signing and less hacking - especially for owners. Foremost to get rid of all the chip-tuned soot sources I am constanly driving behind. The manufacturer knows how to control the engine, the random idiot with a laptop in 95% of the cases does more harm then good. If the manufa…

> Because that means not only you (the owner) can do it. Not when it requires physical wires. This isn't some wireless TCP/IP stack connected to the internet. Car entertainment/air conditioning systems usually also use a physically separate CAN bus so internet-connected dashboard devices don't get access to the engine and steering controls. They may share 12V power and that's it. Comma.ai gets access to the "secret"…

To chime in (I'm not the original commenter you're replying to), in theory someone could develop an Internet-connected gadget, break into your car without being detected, plug said gadget in, and then drive you into a wall or off a cliff, maybe that's what the grandfather poster is worried about.

But in reality, no one's develop that sort of tech, and if a baddie wants to kidnap or kill, they'd probably spend their resources somewhere rather than hacking such a tool.

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