There are a lot of similar failure modes in humans. Sometimes they're are used for good, like making drivers slow down: https://www.insider.com/optical-illusions-3d-crosswalk-drivi... But other times they cause crashes: https://imgur.com/a/kYr94
Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing them to swerve or stop
121–130 of 264 posts
Re: Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing them to swerve or stop
#122Why don't we build some experimental infrastructure that is designed specifically for self driving vehicles?
Having to invest is specialized infrastructure for self-driving cars defeats the whole point of them. Any money spent on infrastructure for self-driving cars would be better spent on public transportation.
Any money spent on public transportation would be better spent upgrading infrastructure to serve autonomous vehicles.
Our bus system where I live travels with many busses nearly empty. This is what happens when they are funded by a percentage of property taxes rather than individuals paying per ride. A perfect example of government waste.
Re: Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing them to swerve or stop
#123Earlier quoted context omitted.
Having to invest is specialized infrastructure for self-driving cars defeats the whole point of them. Any money spent on infrastructure for self-driving cars would be better spent on public transportation.
This is like saying that investing in asphalt is pointless when horses can walk on dirt or cobble. The fact of the matter is that building new public transport is monumentally expensive, but roads themselves already exist. Installing new sensors and beacons would certainly not be a cheap task, but the bulk of the work is already done and there's no reason why these new systems couldn't integrate with existing roads t…
Is public transportation really monumentally expensive when compared to almost every adult spending somewhere between $5,000 and $150,000 every 5-10 years on a car? AAA says the average American spends nearly $9k/year owning/operating a vehicle. That'd buy a lot of public transportation infrastructure.
Re: Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing them to swerve or stop
#124Cars should not detect "obstacles". They should detect roads. They should not seek _exceptions_ to driveable space through classification- or segmentation-first strategies. They should only detect driveable space. Full stop. You either detect a full-stopping-distance's worth of clear road through reliable (non visual) ranging with dense enough samples to preclude wheel-catching voids ... or you will continue to run i…
> They should only detect driveable space.
I'm interested to hear how you decide what's drivable without detecting things that decide if roads are undrivable.
Re: Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing them to swerve or stop
#125Earlier quoted context omitted.
Having to invest is specialized infrastructure for self-driving cars defeats the whole point of them. Any money spent on infrastructure for self-driving cars would be better spent on public transportation.
This is like saying that investing in asphalt is pointless when horses can walk on dirt or cobble. The fact of the matter is that building new public transport is monumentally expensive, but roads themselves already exist. Installing new sensors and beacons would certainly not be a cheap task, but the bulk of the work is already done and there's no reason why these new systems couldn't integrate with existing roads t…
> The costs pay themselves when crashes and traffic jams go away.
Isn't there a bureaucratic problem hiding in that observation? Some money is saved by police and by individuals who would have crashed, but the departments responsible for upgrading the infrastructure will never get a return on their investment. In practice that'll mean higher taxes to support some new-fangled tech that doesn't immediately help the majority of people, and I'd be surprised if that gets support.
Re: Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing them to swerve or stop
#126Why don't we build some experimental infrastructure that is designed specifically for self driving vehicles?
A number of dedicated test facilities for autonomous vehicles exist, some operated by universities, some by government agencies, and some of the autonomous vehicle vendors own their own (more common for those aligned with major automakers which generally already have large proving grounds, but Uber apparently has a small one). I think the issue is that a dedicated test area will just never reflect the full set of pro…
Toyota is planning/building exactly that
Re: Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing them to swerve or stop
#127Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well, lidar is just a stand-in for the depth perception humans already do. It is absolutely valid for regulators to require that the systems on an autonomous car do depth perception, and provide a standard to prove that the system works well. I suspect that right now, ML based approaches to depth perception would not pass the test to standards we would like, in practice requiring lidar. But, this would also provide a…
There are popular cars in the US that use two cameras for their self-driving functionality. Kinda like humans.
Those cameras are fixed whereas eyeballs have multiple degrees of movement via the eye socket and skull mounting apparatus allowing very sensitive parallax measurements. It's really not the same at all.
Re: Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing them to swerve or stop
#128This is clever, and Tesla's software is awful, but anyone doing this for real, with intent to divert cars from the road etc. would be committing a pretty serious crime.
There are already billboards with pictures of stop signs, stop lights, etc on them. It doesn't take any criminal intent. Things that were once just billboards are suddenly hazards.
Re: Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing them to swerve or stop
#129Re: Hacked billboards make Teslas see phantom objects causing them to swerve or stop
#130Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is like saying that investing in asphalt is pointless when horses can walk on dirt or cobble. The fact of the matter is that building new public transport is monumentally expensive, but roads themselves already exist. Installing new sensors and beacons would certainly not be a cheap task, but the bulk of the work is already done and there's no reason why these new systems couldn't integrate with existing roads t…
Is public transportation really monumentally expensive when compared to almost every adult spending somewhere between $5,000 and $150,000 every 5-10 years on a car? AAA says the average American spends nearly $9k/year owning/operating a vehicle. That'd buy a lot of public transportation infrastructure.
Public transportation is often less convenient. I've lived places where the hub-and-spoke bus model wound up taking longer than just walking from one end of the city to the other. How much is an extra half hour twice a day from a shorter commute worth to you? If nothing changes other than the public transportation infrastructure then I'm not sure that gap is easily bridged.