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Faith in government declines when mobile internet arrives

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Re: Faith in government declines when mobile internet arrives

#121
post #113
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Red Army soldiers saw the wealth that Germany possessed and it pissed them off even more. They thought "why would a country this rich invade a poor country like ours?". Can you please share the story? This is the first time I hear of this

Oh man, I've read too many books to remember where that came from. Might have been one of Antony Beevor's books. It wasn't described as a main motivation, just another contributing factor for revenge. Which seems entirely understandable - someone with a better life than you decides to invade your country and massacre your fellow country man.

I was born in Kazakhstan, one of the ex-USSR countries and had a chance to speak and help WW2 veterans in my town. Many of them shared their memories of the World War 2 and being honest none of them mentioned that factor.

Obviously it's hard to have a solid data on these kind of things but I'd be cautious about believing this. On the other side if any of them felt that way, it would be doubtful they'd publicly share that.

Re: Faith in government declines when mobile internet arrives

#122
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will call this a "Elzin Effect": — When Boris Yeltsin went grocery shopping in Clear Lake — Yes, that Boris Yeltsin. In 1989 the future first president of post-Soviet Russia visited Houston, and what most impressed him wasn’t NASA. — It was a Randall’s grocery store, where the Houston Chronicle saw him “nodding his head in amazement” at the fish, produce and frozen pudding pops: — “He commented that if the Soviet p…

> and in fact, there are revolutions happening. it would be interesting to know who's benefiting from these revolutions it would also be interesting to understand if they really are revolutions or not I am more inclined to call them riots and I am afraid that a number of them are steered by people with very bad intentions Internet simply made propaganda easier and more effective, for the good but also for he bad p.s:…

Revolution is in the mind. What was in Ukraine, what's happening in Belarus is a decision to defeat fear, claim the rights and make a change,

Re: Faith in government declines when mobile internet arrives

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it has more to do with how quickly trolls can spread insane memes than anything like this. Flat earth, QAnon, pizza pedos. People have insanity trying to get in their heads all day. I bet it isn't just government people trust less since mobile internet, but everything.

I'm inclined to agree it's not limited to government, but what's incredible about fringe theories is that the very same people who espouse "trust no-one" also lend enormous amounts of credibility to terrible sources. Disclaimer: I think hacker communities have some soul-searching to do here: "trust no one" and "gubbermint bad" enjoy far too cosy an acceptance, in vast disproportion to the reasoning or evidence behind…

The meme war between the two camps on either side of the conspiracy theory divide is quite interesting if you're able to view it from a truly disinterested (disable your priors) and abstract (observe the nature of the discussions, not the topic) third party perspective.

The anti-conspiracy-theory camp can read an individual conspiracy theory and identify erroneous assertions and logic, with ease. Similarly, the pro-conspiracy-theory camp can read an individual mainstream news article and identify erroneous assertions and logic, with ease. And then when observing each other's camps (in sufficient qualtities over a long period of time), they each consider the other community to be foolish (and unaware of it) in an aggregate sense. And they're both correct.

The anti-conspiracy-camp is correct in that if one spends any time in the conspiracy community, it is not difficult to observe that many of them clearly and passionately believe things, with absolute certainty, for which there is not sufficient conclusive supporting evidence. Similarly, the pro-conspiracy camp is correct in that if one spends any time in mainstream communities, it is not difficult to observe that many of them clearly and passionately believe things, with absolute certainty, for which there is not sufficient conclusive supporting evidence (aka: axioms).

Members from both communities will take offence (usually "quite" passionately) at some portion of the above, and attempt to rebut the assertion in the standard form:

[rhetoric, narrative, "logic", "common sense", "facts"/axioms/intuitions presented as facts] + [and then therefore we shall conclude...]"

...but there will almost always be a flaw in the respective rebuttals: invalid epistemology.

At least part of the reason these two camps cannot have a productive dialogue and agree to a compromise somewhere "in the middle"...to agree on some things (that which they agree on) and only disagree, explicitly and precisely, on the subset of points where disagreement actually(!!) exists, is because both camps suffer from loose epistemology - a willingness (and often, extreme eagerness) to believe things (that are consistent with their priors) to be True(!!!), without adequate and conclusive supporting evidence. So, the minds then seem to develop a kind of all-or-nothing, total war defence of each respective comprehensive idea they hold (each of which is typically riddled with errors and untruths), and hilarity inevitably ensues.

I think the same argument is also quite applicable to many other realms, politics being perhaps the most obvious.

I wonder...if members of the two camps could come to realize the above, might it diminish the ability of those in power to so easily pit them against each other in a never ending cultural meme war, and in turn free up their minds and time to be able to more closely and skilfully observe and analyze the actions of those in power (who can currently operate largely unmonitored, unanalyzed, and unopposed, who can censor anything that gets too dangerous to their interests with ...something which is in the best interests both camps, and typically the majority of all peoples regardless of group affiliation? And if we extended this principle even more broadly, across all current hot-button topics in the country, and in the international world, could we maybe usher in an era of more calm, reasoned, cooperation between various parties who disagree on a few specific details, but largely agree (but don't realize it) on the vast majority of issues from the "big picture" perspective?

Re: Faith in government declines when mobile internet arrives

#124
post #2

Alternate headline: "People With Access to More Information Less Likely to Trust Blindly" The article references a paper that hasn't yet been peer reviewed either. This isn't much. "In general, people’s confidence in their leaders declined after getting 3g. However, the size of this effect varied. It was smaller in countries that allow a free press than in ones where traditional media are muzzled, and bigger in count…

It is also possible that people in rural areas tend to have less contact with the government in general - after all, most government activity takes place in the capital and other big cities. And in absence of contact, people do not really have strong opinions. But once information arrives, things change. Prior to mass media, few Americans would be strongly opinionated on the internal dealings of Washington D.C. Simpl…

In rural areas people often have more and closer contact with government than big city folks.

People in US rural areas are likely to personally interact with the mayor, sheriff, police chief, council members, US park service directors, US forest service directors, local or federal agriculture agency reps, public utility commissioners, water commissioners, tribal government, and so on.

And, many of these people do have direct influence on their day to day life.

Re: Faith in government declines when mobile internet arrives

#125
post #12

Dont we see this with open source? More people show up. More people can find issues. Many more people can find issues than can fix them. The bug tracker bloats. Core team members get called incompetent every 2 hrs. As a counter reaction some core team members get it into their head, to share less or react in unhelpful ways that have long term costs and things go back and forth in waves. We have a few rules at work. 1…

Keen observations, terrific comparison. Thank you.

Pieter Hintjens, Clay Shirky, Bryan Cantrill, Nadia Eghbal caliber.

I'd read anything you write about FOSS, organizational psychology, governance.

Re: Faith in government declines when mobile internet arrives

#128
post #12

Dont we see this with open source? More people show up. More people can find issues. Many more people can find issues than can fix them. The bug tracker bloats. Core team members get called incompetent every 2 hrs. As a counter reaction some core team members get it into their head, to share less or react in unhelpful ways that have long term costs and things go back and forth in waves. We have a few rules at work. 1…

I don't know if government is comparable with open source. Open spurce is like an ideal utopian society where everyone wants to see the project work well and have different ideas for how.

Government has a lot of corruption, people who don't care about their jobs and the stakes are much more personal - greater personal wealth and power at stake.

Re: Faith in government declines when mobile internet arrives

#129
It have a hard time taking this at face value. It says nothing about government as a concept and everything about “incumbent parties”.

In other words, people from another generation, with ideas that don’t align with modern life aren’t trusted by the remaining population.

For years, prior to mobile gadgets, one incumbent party has failed to expand its base as it dies, the other has absorbed it, while pushing away progressive voices.

That has little to do with mobile internet, and the entire premise that a new technology has done what humans have been doing for generations is nonsense.

Maybe the technology kicked it into overdrive but the historical record shows it’s been held to an arbitrary check based upon flimsy rhetoric, delusions of grandeur, mass indoctrination behaviors.

The need for governance isn’t in question. That isn’t going anywhere. It’s the benchmark for what that governance should look like that’s being challenged.

Re: Faith in government declines when mobile internet arrives

#130
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not permanently though. A new status will emerge from the internet, and that may prove to be more stable than the more centralized one it replaced. Distributed power structures can be less fragile than centralized ones.

This is getting pretty far from the original point... but I'm dubious. First, the internet isn't really distributed anymore. The media part, at least, is controlled by a handful of operators. It is a many-2-many medium, which is a strong distributed quality... but IDK. Idealism about the internet is starting to seem quaint and naive. I did think so, though, at one point.

I think one think that happens when society functions better is that things seem worse, because the improvement in information transmission that accompanies the improvement in societal function results in more light being shone on problems that for ages had been kept in the dark.

To give a concrete example: the late 1800s saw growing awareness of the miserable conditions endured by the poor, especially those working in factories in newly industrialzed cities.

Yet the quality of life of the typical person was much poorer before industrialization, with most people working as subsistence farming and facing the ever-present danger of starvation and diseases linked to privation.

It was the very resources unlocked by industrialization that increased the time people could expend on acquiring literacy and the ability of people to publish written work, that led to people communicating and becoming conscious about the misery that the poor endured.

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