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How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

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Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#121
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A union is just an organization which represents the interests of workers. If we don't want BS work rules, we don't have to have them. Instead, we could have things like: 1. abolition of non-compete agreements 2. ownership of code we write when we're not at work 3. standards for privacy and security enforced by working engineers and not by management Maybe your list is different than mine, but if you can think of any…

> A union is just an organization which represents the interests of workers. A union isn't just that, though is it? It's also a beast in its own right, with its own politics and power struggles and debates and meetings and people taking a paycheck from your union dues. A union doesn't even necessarily act in your interests. It acts in the interests of the majority of members, who may be out to actively harm your inte…

This perspective is frustrating, as it paints unions as an entirely negative endeavor. They're not and there are trade offs. Those trade offs may be a net positive or a net negative, but only highlighting the negative doesn't do any good.

>with its own politics and power struggles and debates and meetings... A union doesn't even necessarily act in your interests. It acts in the interests of the majority of members

If your going to chastise the process of advocating for your views then complain that somehow they don't get taken into account then I don't know what to tell you. If your concerned that the interests of other members are outweighing yours, then participate. If you don't want to deal with it, don't join the union.

>people taking a paycheck from your union dues

Oh my gosh, contributing to something that you get value from... what a crazy concept. If you don't get value from the union, then see above; change it or don't join.

>Right but what if your colleagues what these BS work rules?

Why does the assumption automatically go towards "unions would be TERRIBLE"? Most devs don't like to put up with BS, so why do you think a union made up of devs would somehow institute a ton of BS rules just because it's a union. Again, if you don't want BS union rules, then make sure the union doesn't institute them by actually participating.

>What if you're junior and they want pay by seniority?

I hate to break it to you, but that's called the real world.

At the end of the day, a union is about shifting the balance of power and advocating for the things the union sees as valuable. What are the things you'd change about tech employment if you could? How could a union be more effective at achieving those changes? A union doesn't have to just be focused on pay scales and bureaucracy.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#122
post #97
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions are just another idea that sounds great on paper, only if you don't consider second and third order effects. They don't serve the workers, they serve themselves (like pretty much any organization). Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power, like workers in other industries. Many software companies offer equity, which makes employers the shareholders.…

The thing that you seem to be missing is that you need labor organization to achieve those things en masse. The current 40 hour workweek we enjoy and the weekends we have off are because of the organized labor movement in the US. If your choices are between working for one of several capital-owned tech conglomerates, or accepting their money for the runway to compete in the current business climate, can you really ca…

You don't need US style unions to achieve any of those, as history shows. Workers should have the right to form political organizations, yes, but forcing your colleagues to join your political organization doesn't make sense.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Admittedly, I did weaken a little when my friends told me about their experience at Caviar. It did feel like collective bargaining would have served them well. But yesterday I saw 1280 comments renewing my resolve¹. No, I will not build a big bomb and put it in the hands of a capricious mob. It sort of reminds me of the Sierra Club in SF. I recall it being some sort of enviro org but now all they discuss is housing a…

If you're unhappy with a direction of an organization, you may feel a moment of sadness, but then you can go and find likeminded people unhappy with the direction of the group and found a new one. fwiw, I don't see many comments in that thread calling for labor unions.

Sure, but if I make the Brazen Bull, and someone else gets it, they're going to put me in the Brazen Bull with my like-minded compatriots, which sort of interrupts the "found a new one" part.

Those guys are waiting on the sidelines and they're stronger than you so when you make the weapon they will take it from you and they'll point it at me. You're no opponent to me, but I've got the Maginot Line and you're the Low Countries. So when I see the Wehrmacht prep the Sichelschnitt, I can either sink the Low Countries or I can extend the Line. And I'm all out of bricks.

And of course you don't see those comments. They rarely speak the truth which they think, but every now and then it glimmers through a crack¹.

¹ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24704597

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#124
post #70
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Many software companies offer equity, which makes employers the shareholders. What's good for shareholders is also good for a lot of tech employees. I am skeptical about this. At public companies, it seems like in general shareholders do an ineffective job at reigning in management. See e.g. all the discussions around executive pay, as well as the proportion of shares that are held through passive funds. Within tec…

(Lack of) Control and overseeing management in public (and private) companies is a whole another issue entirely, and it affects all the shareholders alike. I don't think unions help here - they just make everything more complicated. But the point is - if the company granted me some equity, than I participate in the upside and even if certain decision seems not perfect for me as a employee, and they "just benefit the…

Haven't we been seeing a phenomenon where the institutional investors benefit from IPOs before actual equity-receiving employees do?

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/07/an-ipo-could-make-these-work...

https://www.barrons.com/articles/snowflake-showed-that-ipos-...

And that's assuming if the equity ever actually does become worth anything. Or if they even get equity.

https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2020/03/30/laid-off...

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And then, for those in Australia that support that cultural heritage of labour unity, may their unions prosper. If it will offer clarification, I speak in the context of America.

It's rather parochial and essentialist to imagine that American labor unions are inherently anti-immigration. This country was founded by immigrants after all, and certainly more recent immigrants can bring in new innovations that can improve our current flawed institutions. Perhaps the next generation of labor unions can do better. To imagine that there is a "context of America" that is fixed and unchanging is to bo…

True, it is a bit unfair to be prejudiced that way. But you know the famous saying: "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me". I haven't forgotten how Avalon and Peru and Excelsior came to be. And when I tried, it was brought home to me again why I shouldn't.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#126
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions can be a way for likeminded workers to pool together lobbying efforts. How would such a law right now be proposed and advanced? Certainly not by the lobbying arms of Big Tech.

I don't know who, and I agree that in theory they could. In practice though, I fear, they will be overtaken by parasites, will advance bureaucratic BS, political opinions, protections for people who game the system, start mandating nonsense technological choices, hurt the efficiency, and just drive the well-paying industry into a ground, forcing capital to just move software companies into places that are better for…

> forcing capital to just move software companies into places that are better for business.

Surely this would have been the case for movie studios, given that every actor they do business with is a member of SAG-AFTRA. Movie stars can command multi-million dollar contracts with studios with the help of SAG-AFTRA, and the same union protects everyone down to the background actors. Yet studios remain in the US despite your fear that they'd leave.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are unions in the US really like that, or is it a one-off being used to spread fud? Or could it be like a judge in sports, you only notice it when the judge makes the wrong call, but all the correct ones are ignored? My union in Europe doesn't really do that much in my day-to-day work. As a skilled worker in demand we're generally treated very well. But for the broader questions they are nice to have. For instance th…

> Are unions in the US really like that, or is it a one-off being used to spread fud? Yes, they are. I've been working a booth at a convention showing off some tech and asked a passing worker for an extension cord. The response was that they asked on the radio, but the only person available to perform this role was on lunch so it'd be at least 45 minutes until I could get an extension cord. I have had this happen in…

>> Are unions in the US really like that, or is it a one-off being used to spread fud?

> Yes, they are. I've been working a booth at a convention showing off some tech and asked a passing worker for an extension cord. The response was that they asked on the radio, but the only person available to perform this role was on lunch so it'd be at least 45 minutes until I could get an extension cord.

While the anecdote is true, it's also FUD, because there's no good reason to expect a tech worker's union would work like that. It would exist to solve tech worker's problems, which are different than those of a convention center worker. If tech workers would chafe at rigid role definitions, a tech worker's union that they control would not impose them.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#128
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know who, and I agree that in theory they could. In practice though, I fear, they will be overtaken by parasites, will advance bureaucratic BS, political opinions, protections for people who game the system, start mandating nonsense technological choices, hurt the efficiency, and just drive the well-paying industry into a ground, forcing capital to just move software companies into places that are better for…

You fear all of that, as if tomorrow a tech industry union could spring up fully formed, an IWW out of Big Bill Haywood's forehead. Yes, unions are imperfect and American unions often especially so. But why be limited by past history? Why couldn't a new union based in a comparatively young industry write new rules and determine new practices? Why be limited by the problems of the past? That's what is so puzzling abou…

I mean, these are people who are proud of hacking copyright law to serve copyleft, right? Why not hack union law to serve intersection?

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#129
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing that you seem to be missing is that you need labor organization to achieve those things en masse. The current 40 hour workweek we enjoy and the weekends we have off are because of the organized labor movement in the US. If your choices are between working for one of several capital-owned tech conglomerates, or accepting their money for the runway to compete in the current business climate, can you really ca…

You don't need US style unions to achieve any of those, as history shows. Workers should have the right to form political organizations, yes, but forcing your colleagues to join your political organization doesn't make sense.

Nobody is forcing you to work a union job. You're free to apply and work wherever you want.
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