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Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

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Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#121

Post by physonaught »

m0zg wrote: post #26
croissants wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it is possible that the author grew up always getting participation trophies and now isn't getting any (far more likely, IMO) Why do you think it's "far more likely" that the student is the problem?

Because you don't get to stick around if you abuse people to the extent described in the article. At least I haven't seen it, in a quarter century of my adult life. I quite frequently see folks who treat any demands that they do what they've signed up to do as "abuse" though. Think about it: say you are a judge and you wanted to _really_ understand why someone is divorcing their spouse. Would you listen to just one s…

An economist and his friend were walking down the street, when they spied a 100$ bill lying on the pavement. The economist strode past without a second look. His friend tugged on his sleeve, "Why didn't you pick it up! That was 100$ !"

The economist snorts, and says, "If that was a real 100$ bill, someone else would have picked it up already."

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#122

Post by LorenPechtel »

MereInterest wrote: post #60
wiredfool wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another bit of advice, see if the lab has had any suicides in recent memory. Also, if one or more occurs, gtfo before the stress gets you.

Divorces, too. A family member was applying to med schools, and during one of the visits there was a boast of a >100% divorce rate among students. Every married student who entered that program was divorced by the end, as were some who got married during the program. To have such a stressful program is bad enough, but to boast about it as a sign of prestige and dedication is even worse.

Sounds like a way of ensuring that future applicants have no family obligations to take away from time spent working. A legally permissible way of saying "Married people need not apply."

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#123

Post by arama471 »

yardie wrote: post #15

I was an undergraduate work-study student working in my university lab. I got to talking with a Ph.D student helping set up his equipment, "how long you been working on this?" "Almost 10 years." "Seems really long." "Yes, normally it's 5 years but I can't enough time to finish it. I'm always working on Prof. Engineer's research projects." "I mean can't you just leave?" "No, not at all. You are completely beholden to…

What's a "shop bunny suit"?

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#124

Post by waterhouse »

NicolasGorden wrote: post #112
ivraatiems wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am deeply sorry that the sentiment you express has been your experience. That is not the way it is or must be everywhere, and I hope you are treated better in the future. Even so, I want to say explicitly that the idea that we should allow geniuses to abuse us and harass us because they are geniuses is dangerous and misguided nonsense. Being smart is not an excuse to behave poorly. With rare exception, producing so…

If there was serious abuse I'd 100% agree with you. One problem we have is the word abuse, based on the modern definition and usage, encompasses a range of activities from things that are only slightly unkind and rather run of the mill to extreme examples of verbal cruelty. The particular points highlighted in the article don't strike me as being on the cruel side. My understanding of the world is that the higher you…

> Maybe there was an accusation in that article you consider so gratuitos and bad that it's worth condemning this institution which for better or worse has figured out how to squeeze out human innovation and potential like nothing before in history.

1. There is a common fallacy. Just because a system is getting good results (even the best results) doesn't mean that every part of it is well-chosen to contribute to those good results. It's entirely possible that it has bad parts that worsen the results, in spite of which the results manage to be good.

2. Article says: "My advisor was hemorrhaging students, yet no red flags were raised. ... Those who planned to complete their PhD left the group or left MIT."

This sounds like clearly a waste of resources, to have lots of people begin PhD programs and either abandon them or transfer. The phrasing of the paragraph seems to be saying that none of this particular professor's PhD students stayed with him long enough to get their degree—which, if true, means it's not just weeding out the bottom X%, but that it's driving everyone away. And if it's just one professor, that's one thing, but the article says that the administration dismissed all complaints by saying all faculty had their own "methods of advising". Which rings true to an account from a friend of mine:

As a PhD student, he was the "golden boy" of the department, doing very well. After some years, he wanted to get his degree, and said that some of his earlier work should suffice to qualify. His advisor said, no, I insist you keep working on this project, and if you don't, I will not recommend you and will generally prevent you from getting a degree. (I'm hazy on the exact details of what was threatened.) I think it was also impossible to have the other professors in the department recommend him—I think my friend said it was because they weren't willing to oppose the advisor. My friend went to the administration. They said, we believe in academic freedom for our faculty. He said, all right, I believe in suing you. They said, what do you want? He said, I'm not asking for anything outlandish—just bring in a well-regarded professor, a neutral party both sides can agree to, and have him judge. This was arranged, and the professor said, yes, this is worthy of a PhD. My friend got his degree, and left the university system permanently after that.

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#125

Post by jp0d »

JimTheMan wrote: post #119
jp0d wrote: post #97

This article seems to talk about one particular professor, if I'm not wrong. Does anyone know if the majority of the advisors at MIT behave like this? Has anyone else on this forum had any experience like this? I'm sure if the advisor is an influential person who brings in a lot of research money, the administrators would try to ignore these complaints. I recently read about a case in Melbourne Uni. The professor was…

I know of a case at Melbourne uni where a post-doc was extremely verbally abusive to the phd-students they were supposed to be helping. The several candidates came forward to HR, but HR apparently wasn't able to do anything about it because "it wasn't physical" and it "wasn't against a member of the staff". Completely disgraceful from the Uni . The only reason any justice was done was that those close to the matter d…

WOW.. That's terrible. I was thinking about applying at Melbourne Uni for a graduate course in sciences department. I've to admit that I was attracted to it mostly because of the uni's global reputation. It's very expensive. Now I'm reconsidering. Just because someone is an expert in a field doesn't give them the right to be abusive. There are plenty people who're outstanding in there field of expertise and are also very nice and humble people. I don't understand what people get from such behaviour.

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#126

Post by Balgair »

neolog wrote: post #32
wiredfool wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another bit of advice, see if the lab has had any suicides in recent memory. Also, if one or more occurs, gtfo before the stress gets you.

Are there labs with more than one recent suicide?

My former lab has had 2 since 2012. I know of other labs at the school with more than that. I left, but not as the person I thought was going to leave when I started.

The advice on talking to students is absolutely correct. And to be very clear, if you do not find any good labs in the schools you were admitted to: Do Not Go To Grad School At All. Reapply to other schools and wait. A year waiting is worth the 4 on the backend being a drone in a bad lab.

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#127

Post by rendall »

aidenn0 wrote: post #74

I don't want to condone violence or anything, but I've always wondered how advisors like this don't get murdered. I've definitely met PhD students who would prefer prison to the alternatives of quitting or staying under their advisor. I suppose people who are inclined in that direction would get out some other way before things get that bad.

I only every heard of one murder of an advisor, that took place in 1978 at Stanford

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Streleski

Edit: Here is a NYT article about 2 other incidents

https://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/27/science/27murd.html

According to this article, Streleski bludgeoned his professor, not his advisor

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#128

Post by JimTheMan »

jp0d wrote: post #125
JimTheMan wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know of a case at Melbourne uni where a post-doc was extremely verbally abusive to the phd-students they were supposed to be helping. The several candidates came forward to HR, but HR apparently wasn't able to do anything about it because "it wasn't physical" and it "wasn't against a member of the staff". Completely disgraceful from the Uni . The only reason any justice was done was that those close to the matter d…

WOW.. That's terrible. I was thinking about applying at Melbourne Uni for a graduate course in sciences department. I've to admit that I was attracted to it mostly because of the uni's global reputation. It's very expensive. Now I'm reconsidering. Just because someone is an expert in a field doesn't give them the right to be abusive. There are plenty people who're outstanding in there field of expertise and are also…

I wouldn't say that this is a pervasive problem, this is single issue over a decade. And it was dealt with by the relevant Managers but not the University HR. It's more of an indictment of HR in general rather than the culture of the uni.

I would still consider the Uni if I were you! What were you thinking of doing there?

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#129

Post by aidenn0 »

rendall wrote: post #127
aidenn0 wrote: post #74

I don't want to condone violence or anything, but I've always wondered how advisors like this don't get murdered. I've definitely met PhD students who would prefer prison to the alternatives of quitting or staying under their advisor. I suppose people who are inclined in that direction would get out some other way before things get that bad.

I only every heard of one murder of an advisor, that took place in 1978 at Stanford https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Streleski Edit: Here is a NYT article about 2 other incidents https://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/27/science/27murd.html According to this article, Streleski bludgeoned his professor, not his advisor

Thanks for finding that.

19 years into a doctorate program...

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#130

Post by jp0d »

JimTheMan wrote: post #128
jp0d wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WOW.. That's terrible. I was thinking about applying at Melbourne Uni for a graduate course in sciences department. I've to admit that I was attracted to it mostly because of the uni's global reputation. It's very expensive. Now I'm reconsidering. Just because someone is an expert in a field doesn't give them the right to be abusive. There are plenty people who're outstanding in there field of expertise and are also…

I wouldn't say that this is a pervasive problem, this is single issue over a decade. And it was dealt with by the relevant Managers but not the University HR. It's more of an indictment of HR in general rather than the culture of the uni. I would still consider the Uni if I were you! What were you thinking of doing there?

Yes, you're right. I overreacted. I was thinking about applying for a masters of science in Statistics. I'm doing an online course from MIT to earn some credits. I could use these at RMIT and Deakins for advanced standing. I was interested in applying at Melbourne Uni just because of their ranking. However, after doing some of those courses from MIT, I'm finding it really hard to do it with a full time job. Let's see how I go. :)
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