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China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

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Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#121

Post by DeonPenny »

11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #10

Ultimately, what would such a system be optimized for? The goals will be modulated by the persons or groups in power. From what I've seen, the powerful in China seek a stable, well behaved, productive workforce such that the profit from their labor can accrue to the benefit of the ruling class. A data collection system as pervasive as the social credit system that feeds into a self-optimizing control center that can…

But you have to think the CCP know what to optimize for. Which history shows us govts rarely know more than people faced with issues daily.

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#122

Post by fjdjsmsm »

mistermann wrote: post #60
np- wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If by common man you mean Han Chinese who live in major urban areas - then yes, your observation is mostly correct. But the expense seems to be the systematic oppression of rural populations and ethnic minorities (Uighurs, Tibetans, etc). The virtual (and physical) enslavement already exists [1], it's not really some hypothetical. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/24/china-has-buil...

> But the expense seems to be... There does indeed seem to be signs of oppression of ethnic minorities in China, but to me this is a relatively unrelated anomaly on a statistical basis compared to the general question of where do the fruits of labour in China go: to those doing the work, or to the ruling class. Most of what I have observed suggests that there is a "rising tide lifts all boats" phenomenon underway, al…

Genocide should not be an ‘unfortunate fact of life.’ And lets be clear ‘sufficiently eliminating cultural distinctions’ means genocide.

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#123

Post by mistermann »

fjdjsmsm wrote: post #122
mistermann wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the expense seems to be... There does indeed seem to be signs of oppression of ethnic minorities in China, but to me this is a relatively unrelated anomaly on a statistical basis compared to the general question of where do the fruits of labour in China go: to those doing the work, or to the ruling class. Most of what I have observed suggests that there is a "rising tide lifts all boats" phenomenon underway, al…

Genocide should not be an ‘unfortunate fact of life.’ And lets be clear ‘sufficiently eliminating cultural distinctions’ means genocide.

I vehemently agree. Do you have an idea of how to stop it? Perceiving and describing reality other than it actually is seems to be growing in popularity, but I don't see the advantage in that approach.

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#124

Post by free_rms »

mistermann wrote: post #70
free_rms wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, to tack back to economics, "rural ethnic minorities" means "third world subsistence farming with no health or dental care". The approach the government is taking there is certainly heavy-handed, but I think we should be careful not to fetishize their poverty as something to be preserved.

> "rural ethnic minorities" means "third world subsistence farming with no health or dental care". Are you sure? It doesn't mean it by semantic definition , so is there another ~authoritative source you're referring to that establishes that meaning? Rural ethnic minorities in China live a life that consists solely of "third world subsistence farming with no health or dental care", or they do not. And then on top of t…

I should have been more specific. Rural, or cities below a certain tier, in general, often means very poor in China. The ethnic minority areas are very rural and far away from places that generate wealth.

It's not because they're minorities in an American sense, the government there actually gives ethnic minorities a lot of extra privileges, they get to have more kids, etc. There's a form of affirmative action where they're "bussed" to other areas, which of course gets reported in the west as yet another form of repression. Not speaking Chinese is going to be an obstacle to getting ahead in general.

I don't have a cite, this is all based on conversations I've had and what I've seen of rural reality in China (haven't been to Tibet, Xinjiang or Inner Mongolia, but I've seen some really crappy lifestyles for rural poor Han Chinese. And they thought things were going great! Much better than in past decades).

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#125

Post by wombatmobile »

chrischen wrote: post #117
wombatmobile wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> China wants to be better than and more powerful than the United States of America in every possible way Citation?

I don't think you need a citation for something that every country most likely aspires towards.

What does those terms even mean, “better than and more powerful”?

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#126

Post by fjdjsmsm »

mistermann wrote: post #123
fjdjsmsm wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genocide should not be an ‘unfortunate fact of life.’ And lets be clear ‘sufficiently eliminating cultural distinctions’ means genocide.

I vehemently agree. Do you have an idea of how to stop it? Perceiving and describing reality other than it actually is seems to be growing in popularity, but I don't see the advantage in that approach.

So your response is to participate?

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#127

Post by hardsoftnfloppy »

11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #10

Ultimately, what would such a system be optimized for? The goals will be modulated by the persons or groups in power. From what I've seen, the powerful in China seek a stable, well behaved, productive workforce such that the profit from their labor can accrue to the benefit of the ruling class. A data collection system as pervasive as the social credit system that feeds into a self-optimizing control center that can…

I think you're overreacting. They're just using this information to make lists. No harm ever came from systematically labelling, listing, and categorizing people into specific groups, and shaming them publically.

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#128

Post by dang »

jacobwilliamroy wrote: post #86
nendroid wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Ultimately, what would such a system be optimized for? You're completely right. The purpose of such a system shall be used to maintain power but that's not the sole purpose of such a system. More than just benefiting the ruling class China wants to be better than and more powerful than the United States of America in every possible way. In order to do this their policies must benefit the working class as well as it…

I'd be happy to let the chinese take over but I think they'd put me in a death camp and harvest my organs and rape my sister because we're brown. Just seems like what they'd do, after seeing what they're doing to the uighurs.

Please do not take HN threads further into nationalistic flamewar. Such discussions are repetitive, predictable, nasty, and dumb. We're trying for thoughtful conversation here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#129

Post by m9731526 »

wombatmobile wrote: post #125
chrischen wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you need a citation for something that every country most likely aspires towards.

What does those terms even mean, “better than and more powerful”?

What do this question means? Do you think they mess around with so many neighbor countries is just looking for love, peace and equality?

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#130

Post by acephal »

nendroid wrote: post #92
bamboozled wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Chinas' goal is to build a happy society that is more affluent and happy than the US but has less freedoms." It seems this is the case if you're Han Chinese only.

The government isn't targeting people by race. It's targeting people by culture and behavior. You either conform to the affluent chinese westernized lifestyle or they will force you Assimilate. Very similar to what happened to much of the Americas. Race is just a correlation, the causative factor is the culture associated with the race as practitioners of falun gong (who include the Han people) are also targeted. In…

> Race is just a correlation, the causative factor is the culture associated with the race as practitioners of falun gong (who include the Han people) are also targeted.

This also happens in America today

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