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US military increasingly using drone missile with flying blades in Syria

theguardian.com

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Re: US military increasingly using drone missile with flying blades in Syria

#121

Post by nine_k »

bdamm wrote: post #74
nine_k wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the US is, like, at war in Syria? Wars being a terrible thing and all, one won't expect a speedy and fair trial on a battlefield.

The US is not at war in Syria. ISIS is deemed to be a threat to stable governments in the area including Israel, Iraq, and even Turkey, and US is assisting those governments in fighting ISIS back. The seemingly endless civil war in Syria is still a civil war although US had at one point been supporting certain groups.

My idea was that the US is fulfilling the ally obligations towards these governments. ISIS itself is not a recognized sovereign, so it cannot be declared a war to, thus no congressional approval.

Re: US military increasingly using drone missile with flying blades in Syria

#122

Post by rayiner »

pasabagi wrote: post #116
rayiner wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They’re certainly bothering people and threatening peoples’ freedom. Thanks to the export of fundamentalist Islam from certain countries, my home country of Bangladesh is a more dangerous place today then when we left 30 years ago. (And it was under a military dictatorship then!) Unsurprisingly, we take harsh measures to crack down on fundamentalism, including banning Islamist parties and executing terrorists: https:…

My read of Islamic extremism is that it's largely funded by arab dictatorships, either the elites, or the governments themselves. At the same time, the basic recruitment pitch is usually grounded in popular dissatisfaction about these dictators. So you have people like Osama Bin Laden, an elite Saudi funded by other elite Saudis, with a recruitment pitch that was heavily dependent on the intense hatred many arabs hav…

That has elements of truth but is not really the whole story. First, terrorism is a problem in many countries. Bangladesh and India aren’t dictatorships, but face significant terror threats. The idea that a pan-Islamic state should replace the existing nation states is a real thing. Second, don’t overlook the hatred of Israel. Attitudes ranging from anti-Zionism to outright anti-semitism are nearly universal in the Muslim world. America’s support of Israel is a huge recruiting tool.

Third, you’re conflating fundamentalism with terrorism. Though the former often leads to the latter, the two are a bit different. Saudi isn’t funding terrorists that want to overthrow the Kingdom. That would make no sense. But they do want to promote and export their fundamentalism brand of Islam to make the Muslim world more cohesive (with themselves at the head of it). And insofar as there is funding of terrorism, at least the intention isn’t for it to be directed back at themselves.

Fourth, everyone, even people who intensely dislike these governments, fear what would replace them if they fell. Syria is a good example. Assad might have been a dictator, but he was propped up by the west for a long time because what was waiting to replace him was ISIS.

The Howard Zinn-style “blame America for everything” approach is illuminating to a degree because our involvement really is a key factor. But these countries also have vast and complex politics that have nothing to do with us. Overlooking the factors behind American involvement encourages magical thinking—that if only we would disengage, these problems would sort themselves out.

Re: US military increasingly using drone missile with flying blades in Syria

#124

Post by akavi »

rayiner wrote: post #98
mercurysmessage wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People fail to notice that many who are killed are innocent, and this actually creates more people willing to fight back. It's a vicious cycle, and the murdering of innocent people only makes it worse.

It’s not clear to me whether that’s true on a larger scale. Obviously, innocent people die in war and that’s regrettable and to be minimized. But innocent people also suffer from the instability and insecurity caused by terrorism. Note that while most countries opposed the US invasion of Afghanistan, opinion polling in India—which shares a border with that country—showed a majority of people there supported military…

> while most countries opposed the US invasion of Afghanistan, opinion polling in India—which shares a border with that country

India does not de facto share a border with Afghanistan (Its claimed extent of Kashmir does have a small border, but in practice that's irrelevant)

Re: US military increasingly using drone missile with flying blades in Syria

#125

Post by pasabagi »

rayiner wrote: post #122
pasabagi wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My read of Islamic extremism is that it's largely funded by arab dictatorships, either the elites, or the governments themselves. At the same time, the basic recruitment pitch is usually grounded in popular dissatisfaction about these dictators. So you have people like Osama Bin Laden, an elite Saudi funded by other elite Saudis, with a recruitment pitch that was heavily dependent on the intense hatred many arabs hav…

That has elements of truth but is not really the whole story. First, terrorism is a problem in many countries. Bangladesh and India aren’t dictatorships, but face significant terror threats. The idea that a pan-Islamic state should replace the existing nation states is a real thing. Second, don’t overlook the hatred of Israel. Attitudes ranging from anti-Zionism to outright anti-semitism are nearly universal in the M…

I actually agree with almost everything you've said. America is not responsible for the ME's ills. However, I do think that many states in the ME are classic client regimes, much more interested in keeping foreign sponsors happy than their own populations.

This creates a very strange and perverse set of incentives, where the US is incentivised to back their clients, even while the clients are essentially destabilizing the region.

I would assume[1] Saudi Arabia doesn't fund terrorists that aim to topple the kingdom. I do think that terrorism and instability is most common in states that don't have strong civil institutions, a civil society capable of mediating disputes.

Client regimes are already toxic to civil institutions, because at the end of the day, they don't need a very broad platform of civil support when their primary source of power comes from abroad. By propping up bloody-handed dictators, the US basically ensures that whatever replaces them will be worse - because the dictators are so damaging to the kind of civil society that would allow for a peaceful transition into something better.

I'm not saying that America is responsible for this. Probably if they withdrew support for Saudi Arabia, some other power would fill their shoes. I am saying that they, and nations like them, are inevitably powerful forces for instability in resource-rich, strategically important regions like the middle east. America is particularly bad because their policy is so inconsistent - one moment, it's about US strategic interests, next, economic, next, it's about exporting democracy and protecting human rights. So they prop up somebody like Saddam Hussein for years, then they sanction Iraq for years, then they basically demolish his entire country and state, and somehow expect this completely savaged country to gin up a functioning government from literally nothing while fighting a civil war. Their involvement in Afghanistan was even more insane.

[1]: It's impossible to be sure about this kind of thing. In the Russian Revolution, government funded terrorists blew up the minister of the Interior, for instance. Even a functioning state is pretty far from monolithic.

Re: US military increasingly using drone missile with flying blades in Syria

#126

Post by int_19h »

wongarsu wrote: post #34
int_19h wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A state actor with billions of dollars to invest would just use a regular missile. But not against another state actor with billions of dollars to invest into anti-air defense. The only reason why these are used in places like Syria or Yemen is because there's nobody there with the capacity to reliably shoot down drones and/or warplanes.

I don't think there is any air defense system capable of defending vast civilian areas from drone attacks? The closest is probably the Israeli Iron Dome, and that costs about $50M for a battery with 17km range. Great for a tiny country under constant attack, but hardly economical for good coverage of larger countries.

The drones that are capable of launching those missiles are huge, and require airstrips to operate - we're not talking quadcopters here. Consider that e.g. Reaper - which can carry at most 2 such missiles - has a wingspan of 15 meters, and weighs a ton. Any such thing trying to cross the border would be quickly detected and shot down, same as any other warplane.

There is a different issue with small off-the-shelf quadcopters that are turned into "assassin drones" by adding a small shaped charge sufficient to kill the target if they manage to get close enough to detonate it point blank. But that's also something the Secret Service can handle fine, once they realized that it was a viable attack vector.

Re: US military increasingly using drone missile with flying blades in Syria

#127

Post by krono »

unnouinceput wrote: post #90
nimish wrote: post #35

It's not clear to me why we're focusing on killing people in Syria. What are we gaining from doing this?

1 - Because Russia is there and apart from a brief period of time at beginning of 90's in the rest three quarters of century US and Russia (Soviet or not) went to war with each other by proxies. Syria is just the latest proxy in that wrestling. 2 - Probably maintaining/honing the skills. "If you don't use it you lose it" it's a very old and very actual saying. I got hit very hard by this one at beginning of my progra…

WPM? Key layout? Favourite keyboard and switch? Main and/or favourite programming language(s)? IDE/Code editor of choice? How have you been keeping up your typing speed since then?

Not going to let you off so easily here!

Re: US military increasingly using drone missile with flying blades in Syria

#128

Post by unnouinceput »

krono wrote: post #127
unnouinceput wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1 - Because Russia is there and apart from a brief period of time at beginning of 90's in the rest three quarters of century US and Russia (Soviet or not) went to war with each other by proxies. Syria is just the latest proxy in that wrestling. 2 - Probably maintaining/honing the skills. "If you don't use it you lose it" it's a very old and very actual saying. I got hit very hard by this one at beginning of my progra…

WPM? Key layout? Favourite keyboard and switch? Main and/or favourite programming language(s)? IDE/Code editor of choice? How have you been keeping up your typing speed since then? Not going to let you off so easily here!

Was learning Pascal and Assembler back then. Like I said took the 3 months off (former communist country, not everybody could afford to have such a device at home) so I had no PC interaction during that time. When I came back to school in October I found my typing was slower. The year was 1994, so over 25 years ago. Learned like every single major programming language ever since, it is my day job after all, the one that puts food on my family's table. Freelancer for 12 years now, I love working from home - it's basically pay to be around my kids. Any more hooks you need?

Re: US military increasingly using drone missile with flying blades in Syria

#129

Post by krono »

unnouinceput wrote: post #128
krono wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WPM? Key layout? Favourite keyboard and switch? Main and/or favourite programming language(s)? IDE/Code editor of choice? How have you been keeping up your typing speed since then? Not going to let you off so easily here!

Was learning Pascal and Assembler back then. Like I said took the 3 months off (former communist country, not everybody could afford to have such a device at home) so I had no PC interaction during that time. When I came back to school in October I found my typing was slower. The year was 1994, so over 25 years ago. Learned like every single major programming language ever since, it is my day job after all, the one t…

Was obviously just messing with you but I appreciate the serious answer. Very interesting to me as a fellow freelance dev with far less field time under his belt.

Re: US military increasingly using drone missile with flying blades in Syria

#130

Post by quercusgrisea »

rayiner wrote: post #42
x86_64Ubuntu wrote: post #2

I'm kind of over the whole "Look, we killed someone far, far, far away for dubious reasons with NEW technology" articles. These folks halfway across the world aren't bothering, nor do they actually threaten my freedom in any way shape or form.

They’re certainly bothering people and threatening peoples’ freedom. Thanks to the export of fundamentalist Islam from certain countries, my home country of Bangladesh is a more dangerous place today then when we left 30 years ago. (And it was under a military dictatorship then!) Unsurprisingly, we take harsh measures to crack down on fundamentalism, including banning Islamist parties and executing terrorists: https:…

The critical point is that the US has never cared about any other country in the world. Every foreign policy decision is based on what is advantageous to the US at the time. For example, you seem to believe that the US is fighting Islamic extremism for the good of the world and the people in the places it's bombing. If that were a priority for the US, don't you think they'd have a problem with the Islamic extremism and dictatorship promoted and brutally enforced by their close allies in the Saudi Arabian government? Instead, the US just agreed to sell the Saudi regime more weapons.

The US engages with the rest of the world in a way that is advantageous to the US. This is clear when you learn about the modern history of US foreign policy[1]. The US backed over 40 authoritarian coups through the 20th century. To write such a long comment about how the US cares about the places they bomb is at best naivety and at worst willful ignorance.

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r...

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