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Game Design Curriculum

riotgames.com

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Re: Game Design Curriculum

#121
post #96
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm asking because you seem to speak with experience... Why do we make video games? I've been programming for 10 years, I love games; wanted to make them. But I went into infosec because it felt...justified? Like it's more noble? But that doesn't seem to make sense saying it out loud. But your points on understanding game design because of that human-software-machine connection, that just feels like it makes sense. I…

There might not be a deep philosophical answer. Making games is fun, playing games is fun, that's all there is to it. If you can make money doing something you enjoy - why wouldn't you? To try to go for a philosophical answer - why do we do anything? Cooking, writing, building shelter, sending spaceships to mars. I think generally, the purpose is to make human brains feel good. Ultimately, we all are going to die and…

Thank you for this.

What I left out of my question is my desire and admiration for automotive sports. It's so strange to me that I have no problem admiring to one day build a track car, and waste tires, fuel, and endless hours of amateur manufacturing effort all in the name of "fun". Sure, I'll learn many skills, but it's primarily for fun.

So I'm left with--how do I resolve the cognitive dissonance that "cars" are okay, but "games" need to be justified? I think there's something deeper going on for myself.

Thank you for taking the time to walk through this.

Re: Game Design Curriculum

#122
post #119

Game design (whether computer or even board games) is a valuable topic to learn even if you never make a real game. If you make any kind of thing that people use, learning a little about how to think like a game designer can help you make things that are more rewarding and pleasant to use. One way to think of videogames is that they are useless software . Imagine a word processor that couldn't save or print files. Or…

Weren't there multiple studies showing that games gained experience is useful for the real world? * Social - How many people have learned to trade and avoid scams IRL by playing RuneScape? No RuneScape player would have falled for the recent "double your BTC" Twitter scam. * Strategy- From all kinds of games (chess, strategy, fighting games, shooters, etc.) * Working in teams - MOBAs, Rocket League, Shooters. You sta…

> Social - How many people have learned to trade and avoid scams IRL by playing RuneScape?

This may be true, but RuneScape players do not seek out the game to improve that skill. They don't think, "well, I'm pretty crappy at trading and dealing with scammers. I guess I'll go play RuneScape, even though it's not fun at all, to improve that skill."

The other examples in your paragraph are in the same vein. I am not saying that playing games does not have positive benefits. I'm saying that most players do not choose to play games primarily for those benefits.

> I know people that hate doing exercise, yet they played hundreds of hours of Table Tennis in VR and losing weight.

My point exactly. If all they cared about was losing weight, they would exercise and play Table Tennis at the same rate. The reason they play VR tennis is because it's more usable.

> I don't know if you are a gamer or not, but gaming communities are huge.

Not much of a gamer these days, but I worked at EA for eight years.

You're taking umbrage at what I said because games are clearly close to your heart, but read a little closer. I'm not attacking games. I'm doing the opposite. I'm pointing out that games must be fantastically designed because people will choose to sink hours into them regardless of whether they provide practical benefit or not.

Let's say a study came out that showed that RuneScape actually did not improve your real-life trading skills. Do you think that would significantly affect how much people played it?

Re: Game Design Curriculum

#123

Game design (whether computer or even board games) is a valuable topic to learn even if you never make a real game. If you make any kind of thing that people use, learning a little about how to think like a game designer can help you make things that are more rewarding and pleasant to use. One way to think of videogames is that they are useless software . Imagine a word processor that couldn't save or print files. Or…

Can you give a few examples of some products that get this right? Not just in terms of what's commonly referred to as "gamification", and not talking about badges and things that dance around, but a deeper, less obvious, more subtle and refined connection with to that analogy? I remember I liked a game and I started writing code to play it for me so I could do other things while still having the feeling that an exten…

> Can you give a few examples of some products that get this right?

The latest one for me is Ableton Live. It is just a beautiful piece of software. Everything feels smooth, immediate, expressive. It gets out of my way whenever it can but is right there at my fingertips when I want it to be. It's just a lovely, lovely program.

Re: Game Design Curriculum

#124
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weren't there multiple studies showing that games gained experience is useful for the real world? * Social - How many people have learned to trade and avoid scams IRL by playing RuneScape? No RuneScape player would have falled for the recent "double your BTC" Twitter scam. * Strategy- From all kinds of games (chess, strategy, fighting games, shooters, etc.) * Working in teams - MOBAs, Rocket League, Shooters. You sta…

> Social - How many people have learned to trade and avoid scams IRL by playing RuneScape? This may be true, but RuneScape players do not seek out the game to improve that skill . They don't think, "well, I'm pretty crappy at trading and dealing with scammers. I guess I'll go play RuneScape, even though it's not fun at all, to improve that skill." The other examples in your paragraph are in the same vein. I am not sa…

Hmm, so your point is that the main reason play games is for entertainment and not to improve a specific skill. But, does it matter? If it was not for games, they wouldn't have improved those skills at all, as they were not actively looking to improve them, or are doing deliberate practices is too boring or intense for some.

> If all they cared about was losing weight, they would exercise and play Table Tennis at the same rate.

They did care about losing weight, but going to the gym or exercising was not something that they did before or were ever planning to do, simply because they didn't consider it to be an enjoyable activity. My point is, if it was not for VR Table Tennis, they wouldn't have lost that weight. Same with other skills, if it was not for the games that were facilitating the development of certain skills, most likely most would never aquire those skills, which, for the most part have clear real-life applicability and benefits.

I think it's the same like saying tracking steps taken using mobile's device gamification feature has no real-world benefit. Yet, my dad actively started walking more just to reach the daily steps goal. If it was not for that goal, he wouldn't have started walking more.

> Let's say a study came out that showed that RuneScape actually did not improve your real-life trading skills. Do you think that would significantly affect how much people played it?

There are certainly games and gamification features that make it really easy to learn a specific skill. That being said, most people play games because they like it, not to actively improve a skill. In this RuneScape example, no, I wouldn't care about the studies, but while playing the game I would definitely be happy to see me getting better are trading (eg. selling fish next to the fishing spot at a cheap price, or travelling a long way to the bank and sell it at a higher price, or even creating huge stocks of fish and then waiting for a price increase before selling). I think games are really good at making people find new skills and things they are good at, without them actively looking to improve in any way. Once you find a skill that you enjoy (eg. trading), you can go further, outside the gaming world, and actively look to improve that skill or use it in the real world.

> I'm pointing out that games must be fantastically designed because people will choose to sink hours into them regardless of whether they provide practical benefit or not.

People sink hours in anything regardless they provide a practical benefit or not: games, books, netflix, hobbies in general. There are many different type of games, from those that directly play with your dopamine system and have the dreaded in-app-purchases monetizaton, to those that tell a good story or are highly competitive and make you feel good for defeating others. People have various reasons to play games, and one of them could be the well-designed game loop, but this one is usually the most relevant part in the addictive pay-to-win games mentioned before.

Re: Game Design Curriculum

#125
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give a few examples of some products that get this right? Not just in terms of what's commonly referred to as "gamification", and not talking about badges and things that dance around, but a deeper, less obvious, more subtle and refined connection with to that analogy? I remember I liked a game and I started writing code to play it for me so I could do other things while still having the feeling that an exten…

My company was asked to make some health and safety induction software. Visitors to the client company would have to self complete the induction process in the reception area whilst waiting for their host to collect them. Client wanted us to present 38 slides worth of information and have them ‘acknowledge’ each point. Instead of doing this we turned it into a game whereby the user has to explore a simplified 3D vers…

Could you write more about this? What have you used to develop that game? Was it the core competency of your team? I'm wondering because the client did not expect to receive a game, so didn't come to you for the game-dev ability. Am I wrong? I'd love to know more.

Re: Game Design Curriculum

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give a few examples of some products that get this right? Not just in terms of what's commonly referred to as "gamification", and not talking about badges and things that dance around, but a deeper, less obvious, more subtle and refined connection with to that analogy? I remember I liked a game and I started writing code to play it for me so I could do other things while still having the feeling that an exten…

> Can you give a few examples of some products that get this right? The latest one for me is Ableton Live. It is just a beautiful piece of software. Everything feels smooth, immediate, expressive. It gets out of my way whenever it can but is right there at my fingertips when I want it to be. It's just a lovely, lovely program.

Nice! You probably know of this link "Get started making music"[0] and I found it pretty cool.

What do you think of "The Sims Game Design Documents"[1]? Could you recommend other similar resources?

I guess what really strikes a chord with me is the arc, not only "in" the game, but of the journey to make the game. One book I enjoyed on an emotional level was "The Making of Prince of Persia"[2] by Jordan Mechner. I also enjoyed "Masters of Doom"[3] by David Kushner, but more on the merit of good research, which I really respect. I don't want a montage, I want the story with the suffering and tribulations.

Do you know of similar content?

[0]: https://learningmusic.ableton.com/

[1]: https://donhopkins.com/home/TheSimsDesignDocuments/

[2]: https://www.amazon.com/Making-Prince-Persia-Journals-1985-19...

[3]: https://www.amazon.com/Masters-Doom-Created-Transformed-Cult...

Re: Game Design Curriculum

#127
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LoL is also an amazing spectator sport, the format is so fun to watch. OverWatch/CS-GO/Valorant/Fortnite etc... the FPS aspect is a harder to follow especially for people with slower eye movement. Lol on the other hand, its like watching Soccer/Golf/Football except the players also have magic/hi-tech abilities. The "depth" of the strategy is also sooo much more than an FPS. flex picks, lane swaps, lane freezing , met…

The "depth" of the strategy is also sooo much more than an FPS You only think that because you know more about LoL. As someone very into Overwatch, it's an absurdly complicated game where you only know about the complexity once you learn about it. After having learned a lot more about the game, I can look at high-level play and "see" a lot more of the things they're doing due to the level of complexity of the game, j…

this is cs / this is overwatch: https://www.reddit.com/r/LivestreamFail/comments/ildfi9/xqc_...
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