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How to stop procrastinating by using the Fogg Behavior Model

deprocrastination.co

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Re: How to stop procrastinating by using the Fogg Behavior Model

#121
post #74
post #10

For things that I don't have the motivation to do (things I procrastinate), my strategy is to start doing the smallest possible unit of that thing as I can. Recently I started meditating, something I've tried to get into, but never have. I downloaded this app Balance which encourages daily practice (reminders, 3,5,10 guided meditations, etc). I am still not "motivated" to do it, but I don't need to be because it is j…

> For things that I don't have the motivation to do (things I procrastinate), my strategy is to start doing the smallest possible unit of that thing as I can. I wanted to address this in a separate comment, especially given the prevalence in this thread of mentioning ADHD and its co-morbidities as further context for struggling with procrastination and 'motivation'. It's important to be very aware about the ways to w…

This sounds like a hack, but after doing it for long enough, you realize it's just a much-needed refactoring.

"Doing the dishes" is made up of individual actions, guys. If the outcome of your actions is that your sink is "mostly clean, but has a bowl in it," that's...just fine!

Re: How to stop procrastinating by using the Fogg Behavior Model

#122

Some time back, I read all I could on procrastination, and watched dozens of videos on it, and by far the best thing I found on it was this video by Tim Pychyl: [1] It focuses particularly on procrastination in graduate school, but is widely applicable elsewhere. One of the key insights that Pychyl, a psychologist who studies procrastination, had is that procrastination is not (as is commonly believed) a time managem…

[...] procrastination is not (as is commonly believed) a time management problem but a problem with managing negative emotions.

Could there not be a catch 22 here where the negative emotions causing procrastination are in turn caused by the accumulating mess that said vice so often causes?

Re: How to stop procrastinating by using the Fogg Behavior Model

#123

Some time back, I read all I could on procrastination, and watched dozens of videos on it, and by far the best thing I found on it was this video by Tim Pychyl: [1] It focuses particularly on procrastination in graduate school, but is widely applicable elsewhere. One of the key insights that Pychyl, a psychologist who studies procrastination, had is that procrastination is not (as is commonly believed) a time managem…

Thanks for this. I found the article to be really naive in a Dale Carnegie kind of way, that probably appeals to someone in their mid-20s trying to reinvent themselves, but is actually a psychological dead end. For me, procrastination has definitely fit the profile of pain avoidance rather than a lack of any of those three elements the article focuses on.

The article is entirely based on Fogg's behavior model. Your criticism isn't really addressing the article, it's addressing the model used. As for pain avoidance, that seems to be a part of the factor Motivation, which is divided into the sub-factors Sensation, Anticipation and Social Cohesion. I've found a number of sites explaining the model and they all have something like this to say about Sensation:

> Searching to experience pleasure or avoiding pain. These strong motivators are thought to be a primitive and immediate response to information.

I can't find an official source for it, so I have to assume it's in Fogg's book. But it seems pain avoidance is something that is addressed by the model.

Some relevant links:

https://blog.crobox.com/article/fogg-behavior-model

https://www.buzzstream.com/blog/the-psychology-of-behavior-c...

https://mariashriver.com/stanford-researcher-bj-fogg-on-the-...

https://lifehacker.com/how-to-stop-procrastinating-with-beha...

As for Fogg, he seems to be a research associate at Stanford and founded the Behavior Design Lab. How much weight that carries, no idea.

https://behaviordesign.stanford.edu/

edit: I think I found the paper where FBM is from

http://captology.stanford.edu/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Beh... (found through https://behaviordesign.stanford.edu/fogg-behavior-model)

Re: How to stop procrastinating by using the Fogg Behavior Model

#124
post #113
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why see a psychiatrist? Are those really things to 'fix' on the whole - given the upsides? I'm incredibly energetic. I can't sit down for long - so I just stand in meetings. TV is a waste of time, so is social small talk, I do what I care about (and it rewarded me well). I've just felt like the speed, risk tolerance, freedom it provides me, and intuition make a powerful combination. I'd say the ADHD (if it is) makes…

To expand - why not use it to your advantage? Consultants for larger, competitive companies do well w/ ADHD. Leaders do well. Founders do well (if they can stay focused on the opportunity). I have a CompSci degree, and loved doing algorithms, etc - but can't be bothered to sit behind an IDE for hours. So what - enough of people can do that well. I've found leadership to be the best use of skillsets where these 'sympt…

I think this is a really interesting, nuanced point. It's one I talked to my doctor about because it was a concern I felt (and feel). Thanks for sharing it here! HN is usually a good space for contrarian opinions, but even so this sort of thing might get shot down a good percentage of the time.

The way I would express it is: ADHD medication curbs the downside of ADHD, but many people report and experience significant upsides to their condition too. The traditional view of ADHD medication is also that it turns children into "zombies". Do I run the risk of losing my 'edge' as a person?

I'm not a scientist, and I'm not a doctor. With that said, here are my notes from my doctor when we discussed this:

  1. I feel that oftentimes negative and positive personality traits in people go hand in hand, outside of ADHD. For example, the calm, methodical, detail-oriented people who make excellent assimilators and "deliverers" in startups are often a necessity to building something incredible, but can also be the very *worst* people to have around you when you're trying to "yes and" about fragile ideas, because they live relentlessly in the real world. Do the traits I exhibit in my ADHD also make me a more effective leader? Do I simply not understand the upsides because they exhibit as personality traits?

  2. Dr. X: There is little in the way of conclusive evidence, but he believes that it's possible that ADHD medication can curb traits that are either perceived as positive or genuinely positive in ADHD patients. This is why a key assessment is the extent to which negative traits manifest themselves. If you have ADHD but do not suffer from life-deranging consequences in some material sense (executive function impaired to the point where your career, relationships, or emotional wellbeing are suffering), then it's often not necessary to take medication at all.

  3. Dr. X: the common impression of ADHD medication -- and in particular Ritalin -- seems to be magnified by the fact that parents are in general deeply worried about their children and the sense that their personalities are altered in some way. In adults, the available treatments do not appear to have serious long term consequences for personality and cognitive function. So it's completely permissible to take XR/IR medication for ADHD on days when you especially need to focus, for example, and not worry about "missing" a day. Equally, if -- in consultation with your doctor during titration and your family and friends -- you feel that there is an untenable negative consequence of medicating, then you can of course stop.

  4. Dr. X: Anecdotally, ADHD sufferers frequently both underestimate and ignore the consequences of the disorder in their lives. Sometimes it's necessary to have them tell stories about areas of their relationships and personal lives which they find are surprising or hard which are unrelated to their ADHD, and very often doing so reveals that their ADHD manifests itself in ways which are wholly unsurprising but not visible to the patient.

  5. Taking the time to find the right medication and dosage is vital. Diagnosis is step one, and after that it is very often months of tweaking, talking, and collaboration with the doctor to establish the right dosage level (strength), formulation (XR/IR, and within that e.g. prodrug is an XR which is a sort of "prequel" to the chemicals you need -- so it stimulates the body creating them rather than dumping the chemicals themselves into your system), and brand (e.g. Ritalin, Concerta, and Medikinet are all methylphenidate, but Concerta is commonly a 25/75 release, Ritalin is available in IR or XR although XR is less popular than Concerta XR, and Medikinet is a 50/50 timed release). Finding something which works for you takes time, and is not an easy feat.
It's fantastic that you're not experiencing significant downsides to ADHD! I'm glad you were as clear as you were in your articulation of your concern, I worry that when some people express things like this they cause unnecessary worry in those who are experiencing meaningful downsides which put them off seeking medication. The tradeoffs are different for everyone.

Re: How to stop procrastinating by using the Fogg Behavior Model

#125
post #122

Some time back, I read all I could on procrastination, and watched dozens of videos on it, and by far the best thing I found on it was this video by Tim Pychyl: [1] It focuses particularly on procrastination in graduate school, but is widely applicable elsewhere. One of the key insights that Pychyl, a psychologist who studies procrastination, had is that procrastination is not (as is commonly believed) a time managem…

[...] procrastination is not (as is commonly believed) a time management problem but a problem with managing negative emotions. Could there not be a catch 22 here where the negative emotions causing procrastination are in turn caused by the accumulating mess that said vice so often causes?

I would call that a vicious circle, not a catch 22, but the mechanism you describe is real.

Re: How to stop procrastinating by using the Fogg Behavior Model

#126

It’s clearly not the case for everyone, but I struggled for an extended period of time with a few things in my personal and professional life: 1. Remarkable focus in topics which interest me and remarkable lack of focus in topics which do not. 2. Leaving “must do” tasks in areas of little interest until the very last moment, resulting in a predictable lack of excellence in execution. 3. Periodic deep dives into topic…

With #1, someone told me 90% of K12 education is supposed to help you get over this. School is supposed to train you to focus on and produce work on subjects that you have zero interest in. I was pretty good at that before, now I think I'm just burnt out.

I think that's probably right in neurotypical folks! Maybe I wasn't clear, but I exhibit what people characterise to me as a remarkable ability to focus and remarkable ability to not focus. Huge deviations from the mean in both directions!

The other thing to remember is that whilst ADHD is likely overdiagnosed, that doesn't mean that many kids who have it will simply not respond to K12 education as an environment which conditions them. This is not something which can be corrected with hard work and thought, although people who do not experience ADHD often (understandably) say things like "just sit still!" or "don't interrupt people it's rude!". The crux of ADHD is that it's a neurodevelopmental disorder and a disregulation of dopamine and chemicals designed to help regulate executive function, focus, anxiety, etc. It is generally not possible to see significant results with therapy, although there is some limited evidence that early intervention through medication has long-lasting effects in children who are able to move off medication in the medium term.

Re: How to stop procrastinating by using the Fogg Behavior Model

#127
post #111

It’s clearly not the case for everyone, but I struggled for an extended period of time with a few things in my personal and professional life: 1. Remarkable focus in topics which interest me and remarkable lack of focus in topics which do not. 2. Leaving “must do” tasks in areas of little interest until the very last moment, resulting in a predictable lack of excellence in execution. 3. Periodic deep dives into topic…

Why see a psychiatrist? Are those really things to 'fix' on the whole - given the upsides? I'm incredibly energetic. I can't sit down for long - so I just stand in meetings. TV is a waste of time, so is social small talk, I do what I care about (and it rewarded me well). I've just felt like the speed, risk tolerance, freedom it provides me, and intuition make a powerful combination. I'd say the ADHD (if it is) makes…

> I may be conflating ADHD with my incredibly independent personality

I think you are, to a degree. Serious ADHD is AWFUL to live with and there's barely any upside.

> I can't sit down for long - so I just stand in meetings.

It's nice that you can mitigate not being able to sit down for long by just standing, but for many people with ADHD, not being able to sit for long is more than just stance. It's because they can't focus on the task they need to do in front of them so they feel the urge to physically leave and seek out more interesting things.

Before I began medication, meetings were a nightmare to me. I was constantly zoning out every few seconds and absorbing absolutely nothing. Even if I did pay attention for a few seconds, I would forget everything a few minutes later. So I tried writing notes, but it became completely impossible to listen to people when I was actively writing. It was extremely humiliating to walk out of a 2 hour meeting knowing I wasted the entire thing.

> TV is a waste of time

Again, I think this is separate from ADHD. If anything, people with ADHD are more likely to seek out distractions. This does depend on the individual, though.

> I've just felt like the speed, risk tolerance, freedom it provides me, and intuition make a powerful combination.

Speed? It took me 3 days to find the motivation to fill out a simple 1-page form.

Risk tolerance? I think you may be referring to impulsiveness. The main difference is that being risk tolerant at least acknowledges the risk, while being impulsive means using an exciting new mental stimuli as an excuse to make rash decisions (often with poor consequences).

Freedom? ADHD is incredibly suffocating. It's wanting to start doing something but feeling overpowered and locked-up. It's wanting to achieve long-term goals but feeling like you're constantly self-sabotaging yourself. It's making a plan in the morning, being unable to accomplish anything during the day, and furiously kicking yourself at night in an endless cycle of self-hatred. For me, ADHD is the complete opposite of freedom. It's a prison.

I apologize if I'm disregarding your experience by citing my own experience. But please don't suggest people to not see a psychiatrist, or that ADHD isn't something to fix. For most people, ADHD is a constant and serious detriment to school, work, relationships, and just everyday life.

Re: How to stop procrastinating by using the Fogg Behavior Model

#128

It’s clearly not the case for everyone, but I struggled for an extended period of time with a few things in my personal and professional life: 1. Remarkable focus in topics which interest me and remarkable lack of focus in topics which do not. 2. Leaving “must do” tasks in areas of little interest until the very last moment, resulting in a predictable lack of excellence in execution. 3. Periodic deep dives into topic…

Hah, reading through that list I thought 'hey this is my ADHD', and sure enough that is where you went with it.

After 30-odd years of feeling alone on this front, it's always lovely hearing that others have had similar experiences. Thank you!

Re: How to stop procrastinating by using the Fogg Behavior Model

#129
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't have the steps to achieve X and you can't come up with the steps on the fly (or the steps you know do not work) then you will not be able to do X when you want to.

In my understanding X is a situation not a goal to achieve. So it can be as simple as 'Today at 5pm' or 'I am at a bar craving a cigarette'

My comment was more a general issue. If you know what to do then planning specific slots to do them, makes sense.

Re: How to stop procrastinating by using the Fogg Behavior Model

#130
If motivation and ability are both already there, I usually find the easiest way to move past procrastination is to choose a small-mid sized task and set a 15 minute timer.

Committing to working on that task for 15 mins, even if I really dont feel like it, is usually enough to get the ball rolling.

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