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Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

nytimes.com

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Re: Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

#121

Post by AnimalMuppet »

shadowgovt wrote: post #117
victoro0 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would that imply lack of security? Wouldn't it be perfect if every single homicide by a stranger was by a cop? It would mean that a cop was there every time to stop the criminal before they hurt someone.

That's assuming that the only people cops shoot are criminals. in point of fact, legally, almost everyone the cops shoot are innocent people in the eyes of the law.

Innocent in the eyes of the law, meaning what? No prior convictions? Not convicted of the crime for which the police officer is looking for the perpetrator? Of course they're not; they haven't even been arrested yet. And once they're dead, nobody's going to bother to prosecute and convict them.

For example, we recently had an armed robbery outside a bar here. Police came looking for the perpetrator. They found a man who they suspected might be the robber. He ran from them. They chased him. He turned around with a gun in his hand. They shot and killed him.

Now: Was he innocent in the eyes of the law? He wasn't convicted of that robbery. He wasn't even arrested for it. They would have arrested him (or at least detained him), but he fled, and then turned around with a gun.

So I'm not sure that "innocent in the eyes of the law" says very much. Other than escaped prisoners, everyone the police encounter is innocent in the eyes of the law, at least on the issue for which the police are confronting them.

Re: Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

#122

Post by kbutler »

justSayin000001 wrote: post #110
ghthor wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, we need some strong Republican for the people mayors and governors to replace these weak democratic wannabe leaders.

More people have died from the weak and careless inaction of our president and his sycophant governors because of covid.

Trump's sycophantic governors with the most deaths:

  New York 32,817 Andrew Cuomo (D)
  New Jersey 15,924 Phil Murphy (D)
  California 10,083 Gavin Newsom (D)
58,824 of 160,976 of the US total

https://covid19info.live/us/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_United_States_...

The next few (Texas 8,817, Massachusetts 8,709, Florida 8,051) are Republican, then Democratic governors of Illinois 7,822, Pennsylvania 7,364, and Michigan 6,524 put it over 50% of US deaths so far, and then some more Democrats, then more Republicans.

Plenty of blame to go around.

Re: Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

#123

Post by dragonwriter »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #120
dragonwriter wrote: post #116

“Abolish the police” isn't “abolish law enforcement”. It's “abolish the centralized, generalist paramilitary model of local law enforcement.” The ability of a blanket law enforcement withdrawal from selected neighborhoods, is largely a product of, and historically has been applied as a negotiating tactic by, exactly the model of law enforcement targeted for abolition by people who Say “Abolish the police”.

All right, but then comes the question: Replace it with what?

Among the alternatives: dividing law enforcement among domain-specific agencies that that have law enforcement within their domain as part, but not usually all, of their remit. You might have relatively pure enforcement in a central criminal investigation service, traffic enforcement enforcement within the agency responsible for roads and transit; truancy and school resources officers organizationally within the education office rather than assigned to them by a separate law enforcement agency, etc.

Re: Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

#124

Post by shadowgovt »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #121
shadowgovt wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's assuming that the only people cops shoot are criminals. in point of fact, legally, almost everyone the cops shoot are innocent people in the eyes of the law.

Innocent in the eyes of the law, meaning what? No prior convictions? Not convicted of the crime for which the police officer is looking for the perpetrator? Of course they're not; they haven't even been arrested yet. And once they're dead, nobody's going to bother to prosecute and convict them. For example, we recently had an armed robbery outside a bar here. Police came looking for the perpetrator. They found a man…

> Was he innocent in the eyes of the law?

Yes.

> I'm not sure that "innocent in the eyes of the law" says very much.

It says that we still believe in the rule of law, not in just allowing cops to be judge, jury, and executioner on our streets. To be sure, shootings due to self defense happen, but we have entire protests and riots in the United States right now over how often cops kill innocent civilians without justification, and are protected by the system from any consequences.

Re: Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

#125

Post by bobbygoodlatte »

moomin wrote: post #44
spaetzleesser wrote: post #3

I really hate that in typical US manner this issue gets pushed to the extreme so in the end a reasonable discussion can’t be had but it’s only a fight with everybody digging in and not listening to each other. Abolishing the police was always nonsense but there are plenty of areas where police is overused and too aggressive. In my view there shouldn’t be police in schools or hospitals. The drug war causes a lot of un…

I think the thing you're missing here is that the distortion (see the use of the word abolish here, the proposal is defunding) is completely deliberate. This divide didn't happen by accident, it's the product of decades of deliberate political choices.

Social media algorithms amplify the most engaging content, and extreme versions of political statements are very engaging. I don't think it takes deliberate messaging tactics by one side or another for our current political climate to emerge.

Re: Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

#126

Post by rayhendricks »

Cutting the Seattle police departments budget by 50% would be the perfect way to provide an argument for Trump Republicans that the alt-left/Antifa are out to get you .

This combined with the portland protests will get Trump re-elected and keep the GOP majority in the senate.

This is what you call a diversion from the real issue which is COVID, that republicans have not managed well at all.

The CHOP was a nightmare that was not shut down soon enough. There were armed gangs patrolling the entire thing who would try and make you delete cellphone footage. There was also rape/Iv drug usage/trash all over. I was literally there back in June.

That is NOT what I want to deal with on a daily basis.

We need to hire more police and private security to stop the crazies, make cal Anderson a gun free Zone and stop the chaos.

Re: Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

#127

Post by [deleted] »

syshum wrote: post #75
happytoexplain wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should be aware that I've talked to liberals in rural areas who feel physically threatened by far-right rhetoric. I.e. the "the only good democrat is a dead democrat" video, conservatives guarding voting locations with guns, the president encouraging both these examples, etc. A couple of them have taken up gun ownership specifically because of this fear . I absolutely sympathize with both sides, but being "very u…

I have never once encountered "far-right rhetoric. I.e. the only good democrat is a dead democrat", sounds more like authoritarian propaganda to me

[deleted]

Re: Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

#128

Post by perl4ever »

kbutler wrote: post #122
justSayin000001 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More people have died from the weak and careless inaction of our president and his sycophant governors because of covid.

Trump's sycophantic governors with the most deaths: New York 32,817 Andrew Cuomo (D) New Jersey 15,924 Phil Murphy (D) California 10,083 Gavin Newsom (D) 58,824 of 160,976 of the US total https://covid19info.live/us/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_United_States_... The next few (Texas 8,817, Massachusetts 8,709, Florida 8,051) are Republican, then Democratic governors of Illinois 7,822, Pennsylvania 7,…

It's unreasonable to equate the states that got hit first, with the states that watched it happen and smugly refused to learn from others' misfortune.

Re: Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

#129

Post by kbutler »

perl4ever wrote: post #128
kbutler wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trump's sycophantic governors with the most deaths: New York 32,817 Andrew Cuomo (D) New Jersey 15,924 Phil Murphy (D) California 10,083 Gavin Newsom (D) 58,824 of 160,976 of the US total https://covid19info.live/us/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_United_States_... The next few (Texas 8,817, Massachusetts 8,709, Florida 8,051) are Republican, then Democratic governors of Illinois 7,822, Pennsylvania 7,…

It's unreasonable to equate the states that got hit first, with the states that watched it happen and smugly refused to learn from others' misfortune.

As opposed to the absurdity of claiming the deaths are from "our president and his sycophant governors"?

But I wouldn't equate them - the goal of the early policy was to flatten the curve to avoid overwhelming the health care system.

That appears to have been accomplished - it looks like these later surges will not match the deaths-per-detected-case or deaths-per-population seen in the New York area.

Part of that is better testing and treatment available now, but another large part is better policy - such as not sending covid-positive patients back to nursing homes.

Re: Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

#130

Post by djaque »

Tycho wrote: post #79

We can split hairs about 'defunding' vs 'abolishing', but I just get the distinct impression that many people have got no real idea about the threat that crime poses to the prosperity of a community (or city or state), and the effort that is required to keep it in check. The occasional misbehaviour of police officers is a small price to pay compared to the oppression and privation wrought by widespread crime.

> The occasional misbehaviour of police officers is a small price to pay compared to the oppression and privation wrought by widespread crime.

What's the going conversion rate on that? How many thefts should we expect the police to prevent for every person we allow them to rough up?

We can live in a society where police are held accountable for their actions and where they do their job. Pretending otherwise is a false dichotomy.

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