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Any claim without a URI should be treated as suspicious

shkspr.mobi

121–130 of 282 posts

Re: Any claim without a URI should be treated as suspicious

#121
A lot of the comments here focus on claims made in bad faith. But the biggest value of citations is when one is trying to make or check a claim in good faith. Many times I find that my own long-held beliefs turn out to be incorrect or partially incorrect or misunderstandings when I fact-check them with a reliable expert source.

As for claims made in bad faith? Don't trust these whether they have citations or not. Because there are a variety of primary sources on every topic and most things in life are uncertain, it is frequently possible to cherry pick an expert opinion that aligns with yours if you look hard enough. This makes fact the servant of opinion rather than the other way around.

Re: Any claim without a URI should be treated as suspicious

#123
I believe that there are two things at play here: 1. epistemology (a.k.a. ToK - Theory of Knowledge) and 2. emotion vs rationality.

What the author says should be completely natural to a person who is has studied ToK and who is in a rather rational state of mind.

A person who doesn't understand the problem of ToK would simply be oblivious.

A person who is under the influence of emotion, well, would be unable to help themself from believing whatever fits their emotion.

The ultimate evidence of truthfulness need not be a URL, depending on the claim. Nor is a URL necessarily sufficient. After all, how do you know the ultimate URL of origin is trustworthy? All you can do is to recursively ask yourself "how do you know?", either until you accumulate enough doubt or until the question sounds absurd.

Re: Any claim without a URI should be treated as suspicious

#124
post #22
post #14

Completely tangential, I never understand why people use URI instead of URL. He obviously means URL and goes an abstraction lower. You could also say without the corresponding internet uniquely scheme or whatever. Sorry for the rant. But I am missing something?

I'm the author of the blog post. It's a good question but, yes, you are missing something. Mostly me being an idiot. https://shkspr.mobi/blog/2020/03/it-is-spelled-url/ I usually spell it upper-u upper-r lower-L specifically to annoy both sides of the argument. (I'm not sure why the submitter substituted the l for I.)

Probably because the blog url does as well: https://shkspr.mobi/blog/2020/07/any-claim-without-a-uri-sho...

Re: Any claim without a URI should be treated as suspicious

#126
post #67
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am I wrong to suppose that L is locator and I is indicator, thus I being a more broadly term and a somewhat nerdy term for Source?

L is locator, I is identifier. URLs are a subset of URIs. Both start with a schema (something:...), but URIs lack the information about the location and way to get at a resource. The canonical example for identifier-but-not-location is an ISBN or DOI. That interpretation however requires a very peculiar interpretation of "location", because imho "where can I read about that" can precisely be answered by "ISBN ...". T…

Being too lazy to go ready RFCs on a Monday morning, is what a valid schema consists of spelled out? Is `isbn://0441569595` a valid URI? If so, is there a standardized list of schemas?

Re: Any claim without a URI should be treated as suspicious

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it’s very worthwhile; it allows readers to judge the legitimacy and relevance of sources for claims made.

>it allows readers to judge the legitimacy and relevance of sources for claims made. And that leads to a world where HN commenters trip over each other in a rush proclaim that Ghandi is morally equivalent to Atilla the Hun because he once said something that they can twist as not being totally in support of whatever the fashionable morals of the minute are. Point is that if people don't like what they read they'll do…

> And that leads to a world where HN commenters trip over each other in a rush proclaim that Ghandi is morally equivalent to Atilla the Hun because he once said something that they can twist as not being totally in support of whatever the fashionable morals of the minute are. Point is that if people don't like what they read they'll do all sorts of mental gymnastics to delegitimize the source even if it's a squeaky clean source.

There seems to be a natural tendency to believe that people do this deliberately/consciously, but if you look at it from a psychology/neuroscience perspective, I think it seems more likely that this is just the nature of the mind. The mind evolved to make decisions, and there is a trade-off between accuracy and speed. When the mind is considering something, there is (something like) massively parallel, high-dimensional computing going on under the covers, and then an "answer" is calculated and pushed up to the conscious level. And if this answer is questioned, a secondary process of post-hoc rationalization [1] will kick in to justify the conclusion. But if you really think about it, this whole process is typically the equivalent of educated guessing.

I don't think it's very controversial in 2020 to say that our perception of reality and cognition is quite a ways off of the objective truth of what is really going on, and this applies to everyone.

Above, @duxup says:

> I find little value providing URLs. Much of the time I provide them, few folks seem to read it, fewer actually want to read it in an intellectually honest way and usually they respond with some bonkers links of their own that don't say what they think they're saying.

To that I say: look a little closer. Once one has gone through this work (for years or many decades), you then have a massive amount of data (of unknown quality/accuracy) resulting from direct observation of actual human behavior, as opposed to extremely low-dimensional and inaccurate (but confidently stated, and peer-reviewed!!) insight into human behavior. My conclusion from this process (and reading about the mind) has brought me to the tentative conclusion that most people usually only kinda know what they're talking about. Reality is far too complex (and our data sources too sparse and inaccurate, and our language too limiting, and so forth and so on) for the human mind to properly process even mildly complex problems with high accuracy.

But...all is not lost. If knowledge of this phenomenon somehow became widespread, what outcomes might mankind be able to bring about? Consider the amazing benefits that things like the first enlightenment [2] and the industrial revolution brought to mankind. Then, imagine if we could have something like another enlightenment, that consolidates and corrects (to the best of our current collective abilities) all the aggregate knowledge that is currently scattered all over the place (in books, scientific studies, the internet, within people's minds, etc), and brings widespread awareness and acceptance (or at least consideration of the possibility) of the fallibility of the human mind, and our corresponding beliefs - what might mankind then accomplish?

I think there's lots of reason for optimism, you just have to look for it (and support/promote it, to increase the likelihood of it happening, as nature seems to not guarantee an optimal outcome).

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalization_(psychology)

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment

Re: Any claim without a URI should be treated as suspicious

#128
I wish this sentiment were even stronger when it comes to screenshots, e.g. screenshots of purportedly deleted tweets/articles. As we get closer to deepfake-video-on-demand becoming a thing, I'm still astonished at how the vast majority of people don't understand how trivial it is to create pixel-perfect fake web content. My default response to a screenshot is to assume it's faked unless there's an accompanying Wayback Machine/archive.today URL.

Re: Any claim without a URI should be treated as suspicious

#129
post #117

As many of those who have read academic papers know, even claims with citations are often suspicious. Time and time again I've found cited sources that don't say what was claimed. Sometimes, citations are not specific enough (e.g., citing a huge book rather than the specific page with the evidence). So, better than giving a URL would be to give a URL with a "fragment" if possible, i.e., #id. https://en.wikipedia.org/…

I still remember one fake news site that took this to the extreme, in that it linked to a story that flat out didn't exist on the site it linked to. You clicked on the link, and you just ended up with a 404 error page. The fact that fooled anyone should probably give you a worrying insight into how many people are willing to trust/distrust links without even clicking on them. But yeah, either way, make sure the link…

That's also a good reason for news orgs to have strict policies around never taking down articles or changing URLs. It happens enough to give cover to the behavior you cite.

News sites could also replace their 404 page with an explanation "there used to be an article here, but we decided to remove it because ____" or "there's never been an article at this address".

Re: Any claim without a URI should be treated as suspicious

#130
post #117

As many of those who have read academic papers know, even claims with citations are often suspicious. Time and time again I've found cited sources that don't say what was claimed. Sometimes, citations are not specific enough (e.g., citing a huge book rather than the specific page with the evidence). So, better than giving a URL would be to give a URL with a "fragment" if possible, i.e., #id. https://en.wikipedia.org/…

I still remember one fake news site that took this to the extreme, in that it linked to a story that flat out didn't exist on the site it linked to. You clicked on the link, and you just ended up with a 404 error page. The fact that fooled anyone should probably give you a worrying insight into how many people are willing to trust/distrust links without even clicking on them. But yeah, either way, make sure the link…

About five or six years ago I spent a long time making outrageous claims on Reddit, and I'd wrap various parts of it in link tags. The links would go to random nytime articles, random papers, or simply nowhere at all. Then I'd watch as the outrageous claim propagated (this in niche communities). It was absolutely terrifying.

I never, ever got called out.

EDIT: I'm remembering now I'd pretend to be all sorts of people, swapping hats within minutes, always waiting for someone to just pop open my post history and see that at one moment I'm a teacher and 5 minutes later a firefighter. It was kind of a joke, kind of an experiment, kind of an angsty setting-of-fire to the internet.

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