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How Pulse Oximeters Work (2015)

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Re: How Pulse Oximeters Work (2015)

#121
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

even holding your breath for couple seconds will tank saturation, so pretty likely high altitude will do the same until your breathing adjusts to compensate

It shouldn’t effect your oxygen saturation’s at all. Respiration is driven by raised CO2 not drops in oxygen in the healthy (COPD is the classic example of where low oxygen levels drive respiratory effort)

I know I replied to a different comment of yours, but this paper also illustrates how this point, while matching common medical wisdom, is not necessarily correct when accounting for altitude: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/langlo/article/PIIS2214-1...

(Summary: Healthy children at higher altitude breathe more rapidly.)

Re: How Pulse Oximeters Work (2015)

#122
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is incorrect? Your (uncited) claim that "These patients have low oxygen because of COVID pneumonia." There are plenty of sources out there[1] that talk about a strange, again, leading indicator, known as "silent hypoxia" which has nothing to do with pneumonia. Further, there's a lot of confusion in your post: if COVID ends up giving you pneumonia, you are definitionally not asymptomatic. [1] https://www.lung.o…

You are mistaken. You can have pretty much any diagnosis and there is no “definitional” reason you must be symptomatic. Pneumonia is a diagnosis (well, class of), not a symptom nor a sign, which are distinct terms of art. You can have pneumonia that shows up on a chest X-ray (a sign) without any symptoms. A better example might be high blood pressure, which many people understand can be silent/asymptomatic for years…

> You can have pneumonia that shows up on a chest X-ray (a sign) without any symptoms.

Your post is a bit confusing, I'm not exactly sure what you're arguing. Walking pneumonia (which is what you're describing; the term of art is atypical pneumonia) is extremely rare, and it's not what we're talking about here. Non-atypical pneumonia has symptoms, ergo is by definition not asymptomatic.

Re: How Pulse Oximeters Work (2015)

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That makes sense thanks! I see that you were an anesthesiologist, now I can finally asked this question that I’ve always wanted too! When under general anesthesia why do they put you on opioids? I read that if not people would still react to the pain? Like would the scream and cry just not know they were doing that?

Opioids are a component of so-called "balanced" general anesthesia (GA). Over my 38 years in practice (1977-2015) and some 25,000-30,000 cases, probably 95% were GA and the remainder regional/I.V. sedation. Of the GA's, I estimate I used IV opioids in 95%. My drug of choice was fentanyl: fast and relatively short acting, easily titrated to response. Along with fentanyl, I routinely used diazepam or Versed (I started…

Thanks for that, really appreciated!

Re: How Pulse Oximeters Work (2015)

#124
post #88

The Royal Melbourne hospital in Australia is using pulse oximeters to manage COVID positive patients in their own homes. The program was setup in March this year to manage a large number of patients remotely (cost/safety). The patients take their own measurements with a pulse oximeter and digital thermometer (both off the shelf consumer items). The person is prompted via SMS and submit their vitals via website. A sof…

Thank you for sharing this. In the program guide it says a temperature reading of > 42 degrees or an oxygen saturation of < 90 are the thresholds for a MET call. Is there a basis for these specific values or are they general approximations?

Thanks everyone (below) who was concerned about whether the 42degrees figure was too high. A doctor on the team confirmed that figure was on purpose, but for peculiar reasons, and was kind enough to offer a few pages of explanation which I'll do my best to summarise. Any errors below are mine, not theirs.

The purpose of the program is to watch a large population of COVID patients who are not sick enough to warrant being in hospital. Miserable no doubt, but OK. The purpose of the monitoring is to identify those who are getting sicker before they have become very sick.

The goal is not to have the system calling ambulances. It can (and has) but we should be spotting degradation and reacting before it comes to that. To that end we measure three vitals (temperature, heart rate and oxygen saturation). They are not each equal predictors of the sickness we wish to spot. They are also not linear indicators of sickness.

We have three levels of response to patient vitals. There are some automated suggestions for patient comfort at the bottom end. There is the metcall at the top end. But the most important is the Clinical Review in the middle. Clinical Review connects the patient with a clinician by phone so that we can dig into their situation.

Temperature it turns out is not an especially good marker of the sickness we need to find in the group of people we are monitoring. "[with temperature] there is a U shape association with mortality, but the error bars at any point a super wide". It has some correlation, but high temperatures are not a good enough predictor of what we're trying to spot. Oxygen Saturation is good because of what COVID can cause in the lungs. That can happen without the patient being aware of it so it's critical to what we must spot.

Infection alone wont bring someone up to a temperature that high (we're monitoring people with covid, not amphetamines overdoses or desert marathons). So COVID monitoring is not dependant on spotting patient temperatures that high, and if it was that high it would not be on account of the virus. For those patients this isn't the only healthcare the patient is involved with.

So why do we bother to give the patient a thermometer? It's easy to measure. The devices are cheap and readily available. It's useful at the slightly-elevated end and helps us recommend paracetamol if/when appropriate. Tracking a patient temperature over their monitoring period feeds data back into the ongoing analysis of the virus. We ask a number of supplementary questions of the patients each day. Hopefully there will be trends.

So finally, why is there a temperature threshold at 42 degrees? More an accident of the project history. We'd built the multi-step thresholds for each of the measurements, but it turned out the highest temperature one really isn't applicable in our project. The patient hits Clinical Review well before they get up to those temperatures. It may come out completely in a newer version.

Also they added "Whilst not completely analogous, we draw your attention to the NEWS2 illness scoring system used by the National Health Service (UK) (https://www.mdcalc.com/national-early-warning-score-news-2). The system uses various parameters to calculate a score of 'how sick they are'. Whilst many measurements have a 3+ (add 3 to the score) threshold values, the NHS does not have a temperature threshold value 'worthy' of contributing 3 points to your illness score."

Re: How Pulse Oximeters Work (2015)

#125
post #102
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for sharing this. In the program guide it says a temperature reading of > 42 degrees or an oxygen saturation of < 90 are the thresholds for a MET call. Is there a basis for these specific values or are they general approximations?

Temperature higher than 42 (e.g. 43) is described on Wikipedia[1] as: > Normally death, or there may be serious brain damage, continuous convulsions and shock. Cardio-respiratory collapse will likely occur. It seems that that's a little bit late to consider calling the hospital? [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_body_temperature#Fever

Thanks for querying this. I raised it with the team and their response is up above.

Re: How Pulse Oximeters Work (2015)

#126
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for sharing this. In the program guide it says a temperature reading of > 42 degrees or an oxygen saturation of < 90 are the thresholds for a MET call. Is there a basis for these specific values or are they general approximations?

When internal body temperatures start nearing 40 degrees celcius, there starts to be a real risk of dehydration. Anything above that starts nearing deathly levels, generally a temperature of 42 celcius will start leading to permanent brain damage and death. So uh, if a body temp is already at 42 it starts to be a bit late going to the hospital :D

Thanks httpsterio. I checked in with the team and posted the details further up the chain.

Re: How Pulse Oximeters Work (2015)

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chosen by the emergency doctors who headed the project. Sats being the more important. Those are default thresholds, but each they can be overridden per-patient. As I understand it there is a lot of communication going between emergency teams and specialists around the world and the odd pre-publication paper. This work has come out of the RMH's emergency department. Full credit goes to Dr Martin Dutch who's idea the…

What other tools did the hospital open source this year?

bearsnowstorm, I just had a chance to read your background. If you or your department is interested in talking with our emergency specialists by all means say hello.

Re: How Pulse Oximeters Work (2015)

#128

It’s weird, when I have a pulse oximeter on my finger and a blood pressure cuff on and it’s rather inflated I get electrical feeling shocks up my arm. The both have to be on the same arm. No idea what it is, probably a pinched nerve.

A pinched nerve is layman lingo for compression of a spinal sensory nerve by a narrowed foramen as it exits the spinal cord.
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