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Your DS18B20 temperature sensor is likely a fake, counterfeit, clone

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Re: Your DS18B20 temperature sensor is likely a fake, counterfeit, clone

#121

Post by robomartin »

fulafel wrote: post #113
robomartin wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

@LeifCarrotson You are making the mistake of taking a hypothetical and arguing against it. These are contrived examples designed to communicate a concept rather than an absolute reality that one should argue against. I'll just say that it is very common to see comments relating to hardware issues on HN from people who obviously don't have experience building hardware at scale. And so, it is hard to discuss these thin…

You are talking about compatibility but the FTDI case was a case of the company intentionally shipping malicious code used to brick the clones, no? Quote from article: "the latest driver bricks the fake chips, rendering them inoperable with any computer"

Well done. They have the absolute right to create drivers that only work with their products in order to assure quality, performance and function.

Fault is at the feet of the clone makers and those who used clone chips, not the legitimate manufacturer.

I am actually astounded by some of these responses. However, I do understand that they likely come from a lack of experience delivering hardware products at scale, and so I can't fault people for getting it wrong. Hence my favorite quote:

"A man holding a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way" --Mark Twain

Re: Your DS18B20 temperature sensor is likely a fake, counterfeit, clone

#122

Post by teraflop »

robomartin wrote: post #115
teruakohatu wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I strongly disagree with this. I see no way to rationalize that a company should be responsible for ensuring that counterfeit devices work correctly They destroyed devices that worked perfectly well, but maybe (or maybe not) had a fake FTDI branding on a chip inside the device. Even the manufacturer may have been a victim of commingled inventory. For this reason I stopped buying anything with FTDI in it, because I…

> I would hate to think what you would have Apple do to Hackintosh hardware. You are looking at it precisely backwards. The key question here goes something like this: Is Apple responsible for ensuring that fakes function correctly as it issues software updates for its own hardware? In other words, just because someone decided to make a Hackintosh or a fake iPhone is Apple now instantly saddled with having to support…

Nobody's complaining that FTDI didn't make their drivers compatible with counterfeit hardware. They're complaining that FTDI deliberately took actions in their driver code to damage any supposedly counterfeit devices that were plugged into a system.

To use your example, imagine if Apple released an update to iOS that would scan any jailbroken iPhones on the same network, and if it detected one, would use a backdoor to send it malware that wipes the device's bootloader.

Re: Your DS18B20 temperature sensor is likely a fake, counterfeit, clone

#123

Post by robomartin »

erdo wrote: post #116
robomartin wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This anti-consumer behavior on behalf of companies I strongly disagree with this. I see no way to rationalize that a company should be responsible for ensuring that counterfeit devices work correctly by releasing drivers that are tolerant of them or do not stop them from functioning. FTDI's products are the combination of their hardware with their drivers. Both are required in order to delivery functionality and re…

You're presenting this as a binary choice: a) > company should be responsible for ensuring that counterfeit devices work correctly or b) > bricking [the counterfeit] device as soon as possible The answer is almost always c) let it be, if it works fine, if not, not your problem. Adding any kind of bricking code anywhere, unnecessarily introduces the possibility that it will be unintentionally (or maliciously) activate…

Here's another choice:

Go ask the manufacturer of the fake chip to support it with their own driver.

Really. As a hardware manufacturer, if you use a fake version of my product and demand that my software work with it you will hear the loud sound of the phone being hung up forcefully.

The legitimate manufacturer can do anything it wants with the software and their hardware. If someone wants support for fakes they can provide it themselves.

We are talking about encouraging or tolerating theft of intellectual property here. Having been the victim of this I am quite sensitive to the idea.

Re: Your DS18B20 temperature sensor is likely a fake, counterfeit, clone

#124

Post by robomartin »

teraflop wrote: post #122
robomartin wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would hate to think what you would have Apple do to Hackintosh hardware. You are looking at it precisely backwards. The key question here goes something like this: Is Apple responsible for ensuring that fakes function correctly as it issues software updates for its own hardware? In other words, just because someone decided to make a Hackintosh or a fake iPhone is Apple now instantly saddled with having to support…

Nobody's complaining that FTDI didn't make their drivers compatible with counterfeit hardware. They're complaining that FTDI deliberately took actions in their driver code to damage any supposedly counterfeit devices that were plugged into a system. To use your example, imagine if Apple released an update to iOS that would scan any jailbroken iPhones on the same network, and if it detected one, would use a backdoor t…

One bad example after another. Why is this so hard for folks to grasp.

The proper example would be fake iPhones made in Switzerland sold in the US as through they were real iPhones. If that's the case, then, YES, Apple would be right to brick them with an update. Absolutely.

I ask again: In what alternate reality would Apple be required to allow fake iPhones, look the other way and just let them be?

Re: Your DS18B20 temperature sensor is likely a fake, counterfeit, clone

#125

Post by erdo »

robomartin wrote: post #118
woah wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are the two options you present either to a) fully engineer and qa the driver to work with every possible counterfeit, or b) to insert malicious code to brick counterfeits? Seems like kind of a false dilemma.

There are a bunch of permutations, sure. What you are calling "malicious code" could --and likely is-- quality control code. The fact that fakes fail isn't the responsibility of the legitimate manufacturer. I don't know how many hypothetical examples I have to concoct to drive the point home. OK, here's another one. Fake Tesla. The real Tesla writes code that bricks the entire fake car. This is 100% pro-consumer. The…

Sure, and fake Tesla just happens to be bricked while it's driving in the fast lane of a motorway, or is accidentally bricked because a bug triggered the kill switch. Think about that for a moment.

Re: Your DS18B20 temperature sensor is likely a fake, counterfeit, clone

#126

Post by javawizard »

robomartin wrote: post #121
fulafel wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are talking about compatibility but the FTDI case was a case of the company intentionally shipping malicious code used to brick the clones, no? Quote from article: "the latest driver bricks the fake chips, rendering them inoperable with any computer"

Well done. They have the absolute right to create drivers that only work with their products in order to assure quality, performance and function. Fault is at the feet of the clone makers and those who used clone chips, not the legitimate manufacturer. I am actually astounded by some of these responses. However, I do understand that they likely come from a lack of experience delivering hardware products at scale, and…

What part of:

> the FTDI case was a case of the company intentionally shipping malicious code used to brick the clones

don't you understand? FTDI does indeed have the absolute right to create drivers that only work with their products, but to intentionally damage a third party product so that it no longer works anywhere else, including with that third party's drivers, seems egregious.

Re: Your DS18B20 temperature sensor is likely a fake, counterfeit, clone

#127

Post by fermienrico »

julianz wrote: post #94
fermienrico wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've spoiled ourselves with CCP subsidy. It wasn't like that about 20 years ago. You'd pay a pretty penny for things and support local/national businesses. Now, you're funneling fuel into the dragon's mouth. For what? A hobby project? Just spend the $7 shipping and get it from Digikey.

Just went to my local Digikey site. Shipping is $20 USD or $26 NZD.

I presume you’re in NZ: You also live in the Southern Hemisphere, way south. YMMV. I presume ordering literally anything besides AliExpress/eBay us expensive in New Zealand.

Re: Your DS18B20 temperature sensor is likely a fake, counterfeit, clone

#128

Post by fermienrico »

fpgaminer wrote: post #97
fermienrico wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For any serious person trying to develop a little bit beyond hobby projects: Think about an hourly rate of $80/hour for yourself. If you have to spend an hour trying to fiddle with subpar shady parts, you've already paid for the shipping 8 times over. Also, it is painful to wait for these packages from China. Digikey ships same day and its at your door step in the morning (I overnight it) and if you use $7, it is usu…

> But even then, you can bundle all your parts and order once. I fall for this trap every. single. time. _HOURS_ spent racking my brain to think of all the things I might need in different scenarios, so I can be absolutely, positively, 100% sure that I have everything in that one single order. ... and end up placing 2 to 3 more orders before the project is done.

Hahaha I can totally relate. Always ends up being a few packages.

Re: Your DS18B20 temperature sensor is likely a fake, counterfeit, clone

#129

Post by robomartin »

erdo wrote: post #125
robomartin wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a bunch of permutations, sure. What you are calling "malicious code" could --and likely is-- quality control code. The fact that fakes fail isn't the responsibility of the legitimate manufacturer. I don't know how many hypothetical examples I have to concoct to drive the point home. OK, here's another one. Fake Tesla. The real Tesla writes code that bricks the entire fake car. This is 100% pro-consumer. The…

Sure, and fake Tesla just happens to be bricked while it's driving in the fast lane of a motorway, or is accidentally bricked because a bug triggered the kill switch. Think about that for a moment.

...and it never occurred to you that a hypothetical is just a thinking tool rather than an absolute.

OK, I'll play your game. The car would not turn on after being parked somewhere for four hours. Only an idiot software developer would brick it at high speed on the Autobahn.

Re: Your DS18B20 temperature sensor is likely a fake, counterfeit, clone

#130

Post by nojs »

fomine3 wrote: post #65
johnghanks wrote: post #46

why is this on github? has this guy not heard of literally any blogging platform ever?

Not related to this case, but GitHub is a rare "social network" in western world that also available for mainland Chinese people.

That’s because it contains code rather than blog content - let’s keep it that way!
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