Int. students may need to leave US if classes are 100% Remote • Hacker News Board

Re: Int. students may need to leave US if classes are 100% Remote

#121

Post by tim58 » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 5:33 PM UTC

screenbeam wrote: post #82

three_seagrass wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's another measurable, negative impact of the America First philosophy [1]. 40% of the Fortune 500 companies are founded by immigrant families [2][3], so the U.S. is really shooting itself in the foot (again). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America_First_(policy) [2] F500 2010: http://research.newamericaneconomy.org/wp-content/uploads/20... (pdf) [3] F500 2017: https://startupsusa.org/fortune500/

America first is a great policy. Our people need jobs and our policies should reflect that.

Currently people with a Computer Science degree have ~95% employment during the worst economic downturn of my lifetime. I don't need goverment protection for my job. In order to be more competitive my company needs more workers with Computer Science degrees. Reducing the supply of computer science degree holders actually hurts my long term career prospects by reducing the international competitiveness of the type of business that would hire me.

Re: Int. students may need to leave US if classes are 100% Remote

#122

Post by paxys » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 5:33 PM UTC

thehappypm wrote: post #47

dopamean wrote: post #32

Seems like bs to me. If you're on the other side of the planet you're expected to be online at 3am for lectures and exams? Ridiculous.

You’ve clearly never taken an online class. Lectures are recorded, exams are usually flexible open windows

You clearly have no idea how universities are operating during covid. Most online classes are real-time and collaborative.

Re: Int. students may need to leave US if classes are 100% Remote

#123

Post by troydavis » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 5:34 PM UTC

kyawzazaw wrote: post #60

troydavis wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The effect would be these students would not opt for these courses. For majority of these students the main attraction is employment in USA, for a small subset experiencing American culture. In absence of both of these there is no reason for students to take online courses from American Universities. Keep in mind that this is expected for 1 of at least 4 years of undergraduate, or 1 of 2-5 years of graduate, educat…

Are you aware of work authorization restrictions?

I'm not an expert on US work authorization, so take this with a grain of salt.

Changes have been proposed to the Visa program in 2020: https://www.hklaw.com/en/insights/publications/2020/01/new-h..., https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/22/us/politics/trump-h1b-wor.... Most are about the H-1B Visa (and wouldn't be specific to graduating students from outside the US), but the process of going from F-1 to H-1B may also be affected.

https://www.internationalstudent.com/study_usa/graduation/vi... (and that whole site) has more on Visa options for graduating students. Hope this helps.

Re: Int. students may need to leave US if classes are 100% Remote

#124

Post by the_svd_doctor » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 5:34 PM UTC

twsttest wrote: post #69

curiousllama wrote: post #43

This is just another step in a broad-based program to make sure as few highly qualified people as possible can come to learn and work in the US. (1) F1 visas have been effectively banned in much of the world since COVID started - the required interviews could only be done in now-closed centers. (2) H1B, L1, H4, and J1 visas have been suspended until the end of the year, leaving OPT transfers, H1B lottery winners (alr…

The US allows over 1 million immigrants per year. Maybe less the past year, but still extremely high on an immigrant per capita basis. H1B was being abused and needed to be reigned in. There are still plenty of people coming into the country through various means, the US is still extremely generous with immigration. There are plenty of qualified citizens here and in the zero sum game that is hiring national immigrati…

It's important to realize that most of immigration (i.e., green cards) is family based (with marriage being first) and not employment based.

Re: Int. students may need to leave US if classes are 100% Remote

#125

Post by kirankp89 » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 5:34 PM UTC

genericone wrote: post #79

curiousllama wrote: post #43

This is just another step in a broad-based program to make sure as few highly qualified people as possible can come to learn and work in the US. (1) F1 visas have been effectively banned in much of the world since COVID started - the required interviews could only be done in now-closed centers. (2) H1B, L1, H4, and J1 visas have been suspended until the end of the year, leaving OPT transfers, H1B lottery winners (alr…

Weren't these visas supposed to be for bringing talented individuals with expertise deemed to be missing in the US? Was the visa system ever 'just' for bringing 'highly qualified' individuals? If America wants highly qualified individuals, it seems to me that 'nurturing' that talent is more important. Bringing in uniquely talented individuals who can distribute expert knowledge accomplishes that. Bringing an IT worke…

Right, but the visas are not being exclusively used for IT workers. Instead of weeding out abuse all current policies seem to be to just blindly make immigration harder. Making it harder for all specialized fields to hire the folks they need doesn't help anyone. The administration is just pandering to it's anti immigrant base instead of solving hard problems.

Re: Int. students may need to leave US if classes are 100% Remote

#126

Post by ausjke » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 5:35 PM UTC

Learn from the immigration in Canada is a good idea.

USA immigration system needs reform. No free welfare for anyone who is able to work. For those who supports excessive welfare, set a donation page for them to put their money where their mouth is, tax deduction is fine with me though considering they actually did something instead of just talking the talk or expecting others do what they talk.

Most importantly, better the education system here first, no more trophy generation, no more AA for college admission, and reward STEM kids instead of treating them as nerds in school. Until then, you have to depend on H1B/F1 to stay ahead, which should only be a temporary fix.

Re: Int. students may need to leave US if classes are 100% Remote

#127

Post by grumple » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 5:35 PM UTC

genericone wrote: post #79

curiousllama wrote: post #43

This is just another step in a broad-based program to make sure as few highly qualified people as possible can come to learn and work in the US. (1) F1 visas have been effectively banned in much of the world since COVID started - the required interviews could only be done in now-closed centers. (2) H1B, L1, H4, and J1 visas have been suspended until the end of the year, leaving OPT transfers, H1B lottery winners (alr…

Weren't these visas supposed to be for bringing talented individuals with expertise deemed to be missing in the US? Was the visa system ever 'just' for bringing 'highly qualified' individuals? If America wants highly qualified individuals, it seems to me that 'nurturing' that talent is more important. Bringing in uniquely talented individuals who can distribute expert knowledge accomplishes that. Bringing an IT worke…

Yeah, this whole idea seems a little misunderstood.

Here's some of the high-level effects of bringing international talent of all sorts to the US of year:

1) more talent in the US

2) less talent in other nations

3) the US can ignore pre-university education and opportunity problems

1 and 2 are great for the US government and the top of the US economy, but bad for pretty much everybody else.

3 is pretty awful for a huge number of actual US citizens. Especially given the current state of our nation, this seems like a problem.

I don't believe in "talent". It's all about nurture. If you need more talented people in huge fields for generations, yet half of your nation doesn't have college degrees, the problem is that you are not investing in your people successfully. If we invested more in education and resources for kids, parents, and families from before conception through early childhood and education, we would not have a shortage for fields like... computer science and engineering. These aren't fields that just popped up, they've been a big deal for a century.

Re: Int. students may need to leave US if classes are 100% Remote

#128

Post by hadlock » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 5:36 PM UTC

bruceb wrote: post #84

three_seagrass wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's another measurable, negative impact of the America First philosophy [1]. 40% of the Fortune 500 companies are founded by immigrant families [2][3], so the U.S. is really shooting itself in the foot (again). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America_First_(policy) [2] F500 2010: http://research.newamericaneconomy.org/wp-content/uploads/20... (pdf) [3] F500 2017: https://startupsusa.org/fortune500/

This 40% stat gets pushed all the time with no context. The way it sounds is that super immigrants are starting these companies. But the way the study is, a 5 person founding team could have 1 person who was son/daughter of immigrant and then it is counted. Lots of valuable brains are outside the country, but doesn't mean we should traffic in somewhat misleading statistics.

I think the reason you're getting down-modded is that the accepted way to challenge this kind of baseless statistic is "do you have a source for your 40% number?". Thanks for calling out this 40% number, I had just glanced over it and accepted it until you challenged it.

Re: Int. students may need to leave US if classes are 100% Remote

#129

Post by burkaman » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 5:36 PM UTC

belval wrote: post #112

burkaman wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that misleading?

To be clear I have no skin in the game (not from the US), but if the GP's claims are true, then I was misled because I did think that the 40% that gets thrown around was founded only by immigrants. Does it change my view on immigration? Of course not, but it does indicate that if immigration was stopped entirely then it is not true to say that that 40% slice of fortune 500 companies would simply never have been found…

I mean if somebody told you "40% of fortune 500 companies are founded by first generation immigrants" that wasn't true, but I've never heard that, and I can't immediately find an article that says that.

The claim as stated here, "40% of the Fortune 500 companies are founded by immigrant families", is very straightforward.

Re: Int. students may need to leave US if classes are 100% Remote

#130

Post by three_seagrass » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 5:36 PM UTC

rileymat2 wrote: post #120

burkaman wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that misleading?

I don’t agree with the overall point but there is an implication in the use of the stat that the business would not have started if not for that 1 out of 5 founder. Alternatively, that role would have been filled By someone else.

>Alternatively, that role would have been filled By someone else.

If your hypothesis were true, then the rate of Fortune 500 companies being founded by immigrant families (40%) would be representative of the % of immigrant families in the U.S. population (24%), which it's not.