Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Fourth of July

popehat.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 324 posts

Re: The Fourth of July

#121

Post by olivermarks »

EdwardDiego wrote: post #87
hintymad wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, and so many people of color came to the US with a suite case and less than $1000 dollars, and then became a successful person in a few years. I certainly did. My wife certainly did. My team, my gardener, and my contractor certainly did. Some people who are from the same school as I went to have even become CEOs of big companies, and some have become famous professors or head of prestigious universities. If anyt…

When writing this, did you consider that most African Americans are descended from people who didn't get to bring a suitcase? That they were still fighting to be treated as equal citizens a century and a half after no longer being considered property? And that the fact that they're over-represented in basketball doesn't mean that inequality is solved?

@edwardDiego there are sadly currently 9 million+ slaves in Africa and slavery and people trafficking is a huge trade worldwide today.

"According to the U.N.'s International Labor Organization (ILO), there are more than three times as many people in forced servitude today as were captured and sold during the 350-year span of the transatlantic slave trade", Time Magazine March 14, 2019. https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/16152/modern-slavery

The USA is a nation of immigrants. Look at the incredibly diverse people seeking a better life as they came through Ellis Island just over a century ago and where America is today.

https://www.nps.gov/media/photo/gallery.htm?id=6529EB6C-155D....

Also take a look at the great work by Charliebo313 documenting ghetto realities in the US today for black people. https://www.youtube.com/user/CharlieBo313

Even though I feel black north american culture is foundational to the American experience, and a major reason why I emigrated from England to California, the current era of people speaking on behalf of 'BIPOC' people is mildly insulting to those people given the internal dialogs within that culture around who is helping and who is hurting. The reductionism of black and white (sic) simplistic thinking isn't helping anyone.

Re: The Fourth of July

#122

Post by AnthonyMouse »

acdha wrote: post #48
bJGVygG7MQVF8c wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. Colin Kaepernick, on Twitter: > "Black ppl have been dehumanized, brutalized, criminalized + terrorized by America for centuries, & are expected to join your commemoration of “independence”, while you enslaved our ancestors. We reject your celebration of white supremacy & look forward to liberation for all. " Point of clarification: by "our ancestors" he's referring exclusively to his African-descended ancest…

You’re upset that he focused on the ones who were oppressed rather than the ones who were oppressing? Many Black people have white ancestors but ask how much of that was really consensual and how those children were treated.

> Many Black people have white ancestors but ask how much of that was really consensual

Doesn't this imply a problem with the whole "sins of the father" thing? Otherwise all of those people would have to be condemned as the offspring of a rapist.

Re: The Fourth of July

#123

Post by adamsea »

vulcan01 wrote: post #102
epistasis wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Grant also sent Custer to South Dakota to wage war and steal land. Once gold had been discovered it was a foregone conclusion that white settlers would therefore get the land, no matter what treaties had been signed. Which lead to a white supremacist eventually carving four presidents visages into Mount Rushmore, in violation of treaties made between the Lakota and the US, and today's arrest of Lakota who were protes…

All the things you said about Grant are correct. But it can be argued that the good things he did outweighed the bad. In that case, is it ok to tear down a statue?

One right doesn’t cancel out a wrong, or vice versa.

The problem with a statue is that it literally sets something in stone; perhaps these particular statues are being torn down because people don’t think the conversation is over; that there is more to be said, more to be heard, and more to learn.

Re: The Fourth of July

#124

Post by thaumasiotes »

yongjik wrote: post #113
hintymad wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, and so many people of color came to the US with a suite case and less than $1000 dollars, and then became a successful person in a few years. I certainly did. My wife certainly did. My team, my gardener, and my contractor certainly did. Some people who are from the same school as I went to have even become CEOs of big companies, and some have become famous professors or head of prestigious universities. If anyt…

Focusing on the "cancel culture" is, IMHO, putting the cart in front of the horse. It is a by-product of a society where a cop can murder an African American in broad daylight and (in most cases) suffer no consequences. If you can't trust the society to not murder you , why would you refrain from tearing down anything you don't like? When the society doesn't serve justice, people will implement "justice" with their o…

> It is a by-product of a society where a cop can murder an African American in broad daylight and (in most cases) suffer no consequences.

A cop can murder anyone in broad daylight and, in most cases, suffer no consequences; there's nothing specific about African Americans.

Re: The Fourth of July

#125

Post by rayiner »

c3534l wrote: post #85
rayiner wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This story isn’t about Truman and the other people who reneged on the promise in 1946–who were all dead by 1992. That’s a very self-centered way to look at this. This is a story about immigrants who loved America so much that they proudly accepted citizenship when it was belatedly conferred to them. What kind of country engenders such love and devotion even in the face of such slights?

Its great that they didn't hold a grudge, but I don't see why I should be moved by it. Of course they were happy, they were finally being given what they were promised. A prisoner being exonerated of a crime they were falsely accused would probably be ecstatic, but hearing the story of someone being falsely convicted hardly engenders feelings of pride in our justice system. I don't see why it should be different in t…

> Its great that they didn't hold a grudge, but I don't see why I should be moved by it. Of course they were happy, they were finally being given what they were promised.

This is an extremely shallow take. These men emigrated to the US at a time when Filipinos were legally American nationals. They were not citizens, but were already entitled to permanent residency, and their kids were already citizens by birthright. Citizenship was purely symbolic. Why would they be happy to accept a symbolic gesture from a country that wronged them? Maybe it was what they experienced in America in the intervening 40-something years?

As an immigrant, I think many native born people often overlook what America is or what’s great about it. My mom explained to me today what she thinks is great about America. It’s that Americans will stop at a red light in an intersection at 1 am even if the streets are totally empty. America isn’t a collection of policies and programs. It’s people, connected by a culture, norms, beliefs, practices, and ideals. It’s a legal system and a political system that is more than just the outcome of that system with respect to any particular case or policy. And those things are all tremendous blessings. People who stop at red lights on empty streets at 1 am are a blessing. You really cannot understand it if you’ve never really lived without those things. I can totally see why these people who built a life in America would be happy to accept that symbolic gesture of citizenship 46 years later, even if it was long overdue.

Re: The Fourth of July

#126

Post by [deleted] »

yongjik wrote: post #113
hintymad wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, and so many people of color came to the US with a suite case and less than $1000 dollars, and then became a successful person in a few years. I certainly did. My wife certainly did. My team, my gardener, and my contractor certainly did. Some people who are from the same school as I went to have even become CEOs of big companies, and some have become famous professors or head of prestigious universities. If anyt…

Focusing on the "cancel culture" is, IMHO, putting the cart in front of the horse. It is a by-product of a society where a cop can murder an African American in broad daylight and (in most cases) suffer no consequences. If you can't trust the society to not murder you , why would you refrain from tearing down anything you don't like? When the society doesn't serve justice, people will implement "justice" with their o…

[deleted]

Re: The Fourth of July

#127

Post by stormdennis »

adamsea wrote: post #119
stormdennis wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're distorting what I said. As regards these protests I believe that they will probably only make things worse. Black areas are where the most crime occurs so there is going to be more police activity in those areas. The protests encourage a feeling amount black people that the police are the enemy and that if you're stopped it's always only because you're black. On the police side this means that the typical inte…

I think lots of white collar crime occurs in “white neighborhoods”; it’s just not a priority for law enforcement.

Why aren't the victims of white collar crime in these white neighborhoods out protesting in the streets about the lack of police help, if what you say is true?

Re: The Fourth of July

#128

Post by [deleted] »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #124
yongjik wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Focusing on the "cancel culture" is, IMHO, putting the cart in front of the horse. It is a by-product of a society where a cop can murder an African American in broad daylight and (in most cases) suffer no consequences. If you can't trust the society to not murder you , why would you refrain from tearing down anything you don't like? When the society doesn't serve justice, people will implement "justice" with their o…

> It is a by-product of a society where a cop can murder an African American in broad daylight and (in most cases) suffer no consequences. A cop can murder anyone in broad daylight and, in most cases, suffer no consequences; there's nothing specific about African Americans.

[deleted]

Re: The Fourth of July

#129

Post by tenuousemphasis »

phlakaton wrote: post #78
c3534l wrote: post #72

Given this introduction: > I've re-posted this many times, because it's fundamental to what it means to me to be an American. I was thinking I was in for something uplifting. Instead I got: > In 1946, Congress reneged on FDR's promise. Filipino solders who fought for us and their families were not given their promised citizenship, let alone benefits. ... They waited 44 years, until after most of them were dead. This…

Who was ugly and prejudiced in the story? The narrator? The Chinese-American judge? Certainly not the veterans waiting for citizenship? They are all America too.

The people who reneged on the promise of granting the Philippine soldiers citizenship.

Re: The Fourth of July

#130

Post by geofft »

hintymad wrote: post #63
weiming wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What me and my family talked about today is that, as immigrants, we are so sad how much the "native born" people of the US hate their own country. They seem to never waste an opportunity to remind others of their disdain and it is more and more visible these days e.g. in big news media or on Twitter. Makes me sad and I hope this can change.

Yeah, and so many people of color came to the US with a suite case and less than $1000 dollars, and then became a successful person in a few years. I certainly did. My wife certainly did. My team, my gardener, and my contractor certainly did. Some people who are from the same school as I went to have even become CEOs of big companies, and some have become famous professors or head of prestigious universities. If anyt…

This is attacking a straw man. There is no (serious) argument to "cancel" America wholesale (well, apart from the anarchists, but they'd agree with you about all those other countries too). There is a serious argument for holding America accountable for the things she has done wrong. You only hold people accountable whom you believe are actually trying to do good and whom you actually think can do better. People talk about the world's dictatorships and ongoing crimes against humanity with a tone of resignation because nobody really expects them to decide to be better; they talk about America with a tone of correction because they believe America can improve. Your parents didn't "cancel" you for each childhood mistake, but I certainly hope they asked you to demonstrate that you understood what you did wrong and asked you to make amends if possible - that's how you grow.

That's what Popehat's story is about, I think. The story is poignant specifically because America broke a promise to these soldiers - and finally acknowledged and remedied it. The author makes it clear that these soldiers had every right to be hurt, but they loved America anyway - which is very different from ignoring the mistake. The author calls it a "stain on out honor" because we have honor.

It wasn't their responsibility to criticize America for failing them - but that means it was someone else's responsibility. Part of what makes the nation great is that in 1990 people did care enough to grant then citizenship, finally.

"America! America! God mend thine every flaw! Confirm thy soul in self-control, thy liberty in law!"

Post reply on HN