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ARM Mac: Why I'm Worried About Virtualization

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Re: ARM Mac: Why I'm Worried About Virtualization

#121

Post by mbreese »

ryandvm wrote: post #82
octorian wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every time Microsoft or Apple majorly screws something up, people say this. It still hasn't happened yet. However, I think Apple has been a far greater threat to Linux adoption than Microsoft. Why? Because it gives techies the *nix environment they want, with the software and hardware support no one will give them on Linux. There is real value in proprietary commercial end-user application software. Most companies wh…

> Because it gives techies the *nix environment they want, with the software and hardware support no one will give them on Linux. The UNIX experience on the Mac is pretty shitty. Ancient versions of all the tooling. Command-line utils have that weird BSD well-water flavor. No package management. Funny Docker quirks. The hardware used to be pretty nice, but honestly I'm still having trouble forgiving them for getting…

>> Because it gives techies the nix environment they want, with the software and hardware support no one will give them on Linux.

> The UNIX experience on the Mac is pretty shitty. Ancient versions of all the tooling. Command-line utils have that weird BSD well-water flavor. No package management. Funny Docker quirks.

It doesn't have to be the best nix environment. Hell, it doesn't even have to be a good one. It just has to be "good-enough". For this, they still have an advantage over Windows. And compared with Linux, they still have the advantage that by-and-large, things "just work". I have never personally been able to say that about a Linux desktop I've had. There is always one more thing to tweak, one more knob to turn, etc...

I'm with you on the ESC key and touch bar though... which they thankfully fixed the missing ESC key.

Re: ARM Mac: Why I'm Worried About Virtualization

#122

Post by anthk »

pjmlp wrote: post #105
octorian wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every time Microsoft or Apple majorly screws something up, people say this. It still hasn't happened yet. However, I think Apple has been a far greater threat to Linux adoption than Microsoft. Why? Because it gives techies the *nix environment they want, with the software and hardware support no one will give them on Linux. There is real value in proprietary commercial end-user application software. Most companies wh…

If Microsoft had been more serious regarding POSIX personality, Linux would never had taken off. Most devs only want some kind of CLI and POSIX like capabilities.

You forgot X11 and Motif. Without that Windows would be useless back in the day.

Re: ARM Mac: Why I'm Worried About Virtualization

#124

Post by ajconway »

timsally wrote: post #41

It is very likely that ARM-based Macs will lack a performant hypervisor upon release. We will have to see how VMWare responds. I'd bet it will inspire new products and innovation and the desktop space will move towards a less x86-x64 centric world. In the end it is a short term problem. Someone will respond and provide a performant hypervisor that can run on an ARM host and virtualize x86-x64 and ARM guests. It's tru…

If I understand correctly, hypervisors don't emulate hardware, that's what emulators (like QEMU) do. That would mean that physically the most performant option to run x86 code on an ARM CPU is dynamic translation (like QEMU-TCG or the new Rosetta JIT support).

Re: ARM Mac: Why I'm Worried About Virtualization

#125

Post by anthk »

donarb wrote: post #73
fluxem wrote: post #15

But linux can be run on arm natively. Moreover, most packages are also compiled for arm. So apt-get install will work just the same. I'm sure they will be able to target Apple's specific arm chips when they come out.

Apple released a list of open source projects that they have ported to ARM, they intend to upload patches to each of these projects: - Bgfx - Blender - Boost - Skia - Zlib-Ng - Chromium - cmake - Electron - FFmpeg - Halide - Swift Shader - Homebrew - MacPorts - Mono - nginx - map - Node - OpenCV - OpenEXR - OpenJDK - SSE2Neon - Pixar USD - Qt - Python 3 - Redis - Cineform CFHD - NumPy - Go - V8

Most of those were already ported into ARM Linux/BSD several years ago.

Re: ARM Mac: Why I'm Worried About Virtualization

#126

Post by ArgyleSound »

ryandvm wrote: post #82
octorian wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every time Microsoft or Apple majorly screws something up, people say this. It still hasn't happened yet. However, I think Apple has been a far greater threat to Linux adoption than Microsoft. Why? Because it gives techies the *nix environment they want, with the software and hardware support no one will give them on Linux. There is real value in proprietary commercial end-user application software. Most companies wh…

> Because it gives techies the *nix environment they want, with the software and hardware support no one will give them on Linux. The UNIX experience on the Mac is pretty shitty. Ancient versions of all the tooling. Command-line utils have that weird BSD well-water flavor. No package management. Funny Docker quirks. The hardware used to be pretty nice, but honestly I'm still having trouble forgiving them for getting…

> I'm still having trouble forgiving them for getting rid of the physical ESC key and turning volume control into a two-step routine on the TouchBar

To be fair it's always been a one-step routine on the touchbar (touch and drag the icon) and they brought back the escape key.

Re: ARM Mac: Why I'm Worried About Virtualization

#127

Post by anthk »

neurostimulant wrote: post #66
armagon wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been developing on a Mac for years, and I've never needed to use Docker or virtualisation to do it. (I've been doing game development, and now web front end development. I'm sure the major game engines and browsers will be ported to run on ARM chips (although it may take a while)). Honest question: What sort of development regularly requires using docker or virtualized OSes?

Almost every server applications (databases, webservers, webapps) are available as docker images. It's very easy to deploy those apps using docker, which is why it's taking over sysadmin world by storm. Previously, handling a big web application deployment is a complex task that requires a dedicated team. Now, you can just package your app as a docker image, and other people that know docker will know how to deploy y…

If you use Docker as a production tool instead of prototyping several shit will happen soon.

Re: ARM Mac: Why I'm Worried About Virtualization

#128

Post by stickupkid »

jbverschoor wrote: post #104
user5994461 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem wasn't in our code, it was in the database code that was either from open source or from a vendor. If you want a sample. Try to install the cassandra client library in python. It will pull in and compile all sort of shit. That's supposed to be python and easily cross platform.

Yes, so time for them to clean up their mess ;)

I think it will come down to PRs accepted. So it's your mess in the end as it depends on the companies strategy.

Re: ARM Mac: Why I'm Worried About Virtualization

#129

Post by rescbr »

ryandvm wrote: post #82
octorian wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every time Microsoft or Apple majorly screws something up, people say this. It still hasn't happened yet. However, I think Apple has been a far greater threat to Linux adoption than Microsoft. Why? Because it gives techies the *nix environment they want, with the software and hardware support no one will give them on Linux. There is real value in proprietary commercial end-user application software. Most companies wh…

> Because it gives techies the *nix environment they want, with the software and hardware support no one will give them on Linux. The UNIX experience on the Mac is pretty shitty. Ancient versions of all the tooling. Command-line utils have that weird BSD well-water flavor. No package management. Funny Docker quirks. The hardware used to be pretty nice, but honestly I'm still having trouble forgiving them for getting…

> The UNIX experience on the Mac is pretty shitty. Ancient versions of all the tooling. Command-line utils have that weird BSD well-water flavor.

Well, OS X is Unix, but GNU is not Unix.

Re: ARM Mac: Why I'm Worried About Virtualization

#130

Post by meddlepal »

mbreese wrote: post #121
ryandvm wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because it gives techies the *nix environment they want, with the software and hardware support no one will give them on Linux. The UNIX experience on the Mac is pretty shitty. Ancient versions of all the tooling. Command-line utils have that weird BSD well-water flavor. No package management. Funny Docker quirks. The hardware used to be pretty nice, but honestly I'm still having trouble forgiving them for getting…

>> Because it gives techies the nix environment they want, with the software and hardware support no one will give them on Linux. > The UNIX experience on the Mac is pretty shitty. Ancient versions of all the tooling. Command-line utils have that weird BSD well-water flavor. No package management. Funny Docker quirks. It doesn't have to be the best nix environment. Hell, it doesn't even have to be a good one. It just…

Exactly what advantage does macOS shitty Unix environment have over Windows 10 w/ WSL2?
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