Why are there so few black people in STEM? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why are there so few black people in STEM?

#121

Post by somewhereoutth » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 1:17 AM UTC

blisterpeanuts wrote: post #2

Why are there so few white people in pro basketball?

Pro sports are (nowadays) highly specialized, highly optimized professions, where one millisecond counts. Whether it be though underlying genetic predisposition, or social opportunities/incentives (both discussed in other replies), it is not unlikely that one identifiable section of the population would have inherent advantages.

STEM (or similar endeavors) are no such thing and never will be. Progress in these fields require the entirety of human virtue (and perhaps vice) - over and above that which can be strictly measured, categorized, in-calculated or trained. There is no good reason why any part of humanity should be under-represented in these undertakings.

Re: Why are there so few black people in STEM?

#122

Post by aaron695 » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 1:21 AM UTC

_8j50 wrote: post #118

They sure love that 13% figure. Why are so many nigerians in america so well educated [1] ? Not doubting any other assertions but my theory is that historically, STEM has not been a well reputed path to success,recognition and respect for black americans both in their communities and nationally. Segregation is only half a century ago,but even these days being STEM educated and black is associated with negative stereo…

Do Nigerian have such high levels in the USA because they need these degrees to immigrate?

https://africacheck.org/reports/nigerian-immigrants-top-clas...

Re: Why are there so few black people in STEM?

#123

Post by DeonPenny » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 1:29 AM UTC

blisterpeanuts wrote: post #2

Why are there so few white people in pro basketball?

Historically you can say interest and opportunity.. The league has gotten whiter over the years most because of influx of european talent. White people didn't get taller anything. They just in europe gotten to see the benefits of being a basketball player via things like the dream team, internet, and a more connected world.

Re: Why are there so few black people in STEM?

#124

Post by SiVal » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 1:29 AM UTC

hellisothers wrote: post #113

SiVal wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's not really a lot of debate about what makes for good schools There is plenty of debate about what makes for good schools. Many school districts are large enough to include neighborhoods on "both sides of the tracks". It is the same school district with the same pay, same class sizes, same teacher demographics, but different student body demographics. Result is often a large disparity in outcomes for students.…

This example feels anecdotal, small classes taught by well paid teachers seems like a hugely impactful improvement. Dismissing that because sometimes students don’t fit in with the environment feels like a straw man.

"Sometimes students don't fit in"? Is that really your description of what a kid who wants to be a good student in a bad neighborhood often suffers at the hands of his classmates?

The claim that good schools are good because of small class sizes and higher teacher pay, that it is as simple as that and that there is "really no debate" is false. Pointing out that A and B are not the only factors, it's not as simple as that, that there is plenty of debate, and describing an additional factor beyond just A & B is not "dismissing" A and B.

Consider the scenario I described: a large school district with multiple neighborhoods where the admin, funding, class sizes, teacher pay, etc., are the same but the student bodies differ. You might be able to equalize outcomes by giving the lower-performing school smaller classes and better-paid teachers, or you might not, but even if you did, you would then have to explain why a school with smaller classes and better-paid teachers wasn't doing any better than one without those features. The answer would remain the same: because there are other factors that matter, too. It's not as simple as just smaller classes and better pay for teachers, and there is plenty of debate about what factors matter and how much.

Re: Why are there so few black people in STEM?

#125

Post by rayiner » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 1:34 AM UTC

neffy wrote: post #10

For the same reason there are so few poor whites in STEM. America's dysfunctional education funding. Make education funding federal, and have a nationwide push to have small classes and well funded schools for everybody, and this would be fixed in 10 years. As it is, rich districts pay more taxes and get better schools. Funny that.

The system you’re talking about already exists! Half of all K-12 funding comes from state and federal sources, and is directed to the neediest kids. Here is the district by district breakdown in Maryland: https://i2.wp.com/conduitstreet.mdcounties.org/wp-content/up...

Baltimore City has less than half the local education funding of Anne Arundel (a predominantly white, upper middle class county containing Annapolis and the Naval Academy). But state and federal funding more than makes up for it. Baltimore gets $12,200 per student from the state, versus $5,300 for Anne Arundel. And it gets an extra almost $1,000 from the federal government. In all, Baltimore getting about $3,000 more per student than Anne Arundel. Allegheny County, a mostly white but lower income county, also gets significantly more funding. Note that cost of living is also higher in Anne Arundel than the other two places.

In most states, poorer districts actually get slightly more funding than richer districts: https://apps.urban.org/features/school-funding-do-poor-kids-....

Re: Why are there so few black people in STEM?

#126

Post by DeonPenny » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 1:47 AM UTC

I'd like to see how many poorer men in general. I'm a black engineer and I couldn't count how many of my classmates would have graduated if they were in my shoes.

There were 4-5 weeks at different where I just ran out money and sat on bed instead of eating thinking I couldn't be hungry is I was sleep. I usually found enough money to collect to buy a bag of rice for the month. But regardless of race this is hard. Given there no attempt to help anyone with anything as simple as a food shelter on college campus why would they stay.

It's kind of un-nerving watching some engineers friends discuss this. It's kind of arrogant and presumptuous. I'm not even close to the smart person I grew up with. When they discuss that maybe black people may not have the intellect, that I know a guy who was forced to work a meat packing plant that could run circles around you in any STEM subject, but wasn't given the opportunity or was willing to starve himself for the chance.

I think the US leaves a lot of talent on the cutting room floor especially those interested in subject we deem essential. It's pretty saddening.

Re: Why are there so few black people in STEM?

#127

Post by DeonPenny » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 1:53 AM UTC

joyj2nd wrote: post #66

CyanLite2 wrote: post #37

Occam's Razor says that they aren't a lot of black people in STEM positions because companies aren't hiring black people in STEM positions. There are plenty of black candidates applying to FAANG companies only to be rejected because "they don't fit in with the culture" or they "weren't Google-y enough", or "they couldn't write a depth-first-search algorithm in less than 2 seconds in front of a whiteboard ("white boar…

I disagree. Most companies are actually trying to INCREASE diversity, be it based on skin colour or gender. So it may actually be much EASIER to get accepted in this companies if you are black. I know in some STEM fields (not all in STEM is CS), you have MUCH MUCH higher chances to land a good job at a big company if you are female. But being female in medicine or law buys you nothing since there is no imbalance.

Yeh you'd think that but if the interviewer doesn't like you doesn't even matter. When I graduated a few years ago I made a spreadsheet to see why. The strongest predictor wasn't how well I think I did out of 10, or hours of prep I did before hand. There were certain people regardless of what I need gave me 100% rejection. I'm not saying it was prejudice, but it was a very clear pattern.

Re: Why are there so few black people in STEM?

#128

Post by HeyLaughingBoy » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 1:55 AM UTC

nimbius wrote: post #49

Udik wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> for possession of cannabis... I got 3 years Sorry if I ask, but how much? Three years seems an awful lot of time. Second, for how long can companies access this kind of record? Isn't it unacceptable to discriminate candidates based on something that has nothing to do with the qualification for a job?

sorry to say, but this kind of question gets asked constantly in every part of my life. Suddenly the interviewer is now your personal arbiter. You're living your sentencing all over again as someone youve never met is now deciding if you get to keep your apartment, buy a car, or get a job. It makes you feel intensely vulnerable and uncomfortable. Its one of the reasons I just dont look for anything anymore.

You shouldn't be sorry. I thought it was a pretty rude question myself. Curiosity shouldn't be an excuse for being a jackhole.

Re: Why are there so few black people in STEM?

#129

Post by dragonwriter » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 2:04 AM UTC

blisterpeanuts wrote: post #2

Why are there so few white people in pro basketball?

> Why are there so few white people in pro basketball?

Because Whites don't face systematic discrimination in (or in the pipeline leading to) the whole host of fields where Blacks do, so taking a shot that is about as reliable as investing all your income in lottery tickets if you have the signs that you might be able to make it to shoot for a pro basketball career isn't as likely to make any kind of sense for Whites.

Re: Why are there so few black people in STEM?

#130

Post by deogeo » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 2:32 AM UTC

rootusrootus wrote: post #72

deogeo wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would it also be okay to suggest Asians are over-represented because of unearned Asian privilege? What about suggesting whites are (hypothetically) over-represented because they've made attaining education a priority? Forgive me for noticing, but "one-sided" doesn't even begin to describe this debate.

> Would it also be okay to suggest Asians are over-represented because of unearned Asian privilege? Reverse racism, as it were? > What about suggesting whites are (hypothetically) over-represented because they've made attaining education a priority? Well, first they'd need to be over-represented ;). > Forgive me for noticing, but "one-sided" doesn't even begin to describe this debate. On the contrary, there seems to…

> Well, first they'd need to be over-represented ;)

Not at all - behold, an entire article complaining about too many whites on Harvard [1], despite being the most under-represented group [2].

[1] https://slate.com/business/2019/09/harvard-admissions-affirm...

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21130080