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Teaching my MIT classes with only free/libre software

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Re: Teaching my MIT classes with only free/libre software

#121
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> promotes drinking "free coffee", whilst simultaneously portraying it as somehow morally superior to "coffee one has to pay for" to consume. The price does not enter into Sussman's argument. Maybe it could, given how students tend to be short on money and abhor paying for expensive textbooks, but it doesn't. > Growing and selling coffee takes time, labour and effort - yet none of that is being reflected or accounted…

> "In my coffee analogy, the promotion of the fair-trade alternative would be based on the fair-trade mechanism for ensuring the lower levels of the production chain receive a fairer share of the income. Whether or not the author pays less or more at the store is irrelevant to the argument." But for there to be any form of income trickling down production chains, someone has to be willing to pay something for the ser…

> But for there to be any form of income trickling down production chains, someone has to be willing to pay something for the services they consume. Is this controversial in any way?

No, but it is also entirely orthogonal to the blog entry we're discussing. At no point does the monetary cost of something enter into what Sussman is talking about. You seem to be conflating free-as-in-beer with free-as-in-freedom (man, I feel nostalgic writing those phrases again – I don't mean this as an offense, but the difference seems to be so much more well understood among the tech savvy these days than it was 15 years ago).

This is where the coffee analogy becomes relevant. While indeed the cost of coffee affects a lot of things in the coffee value chain, the idea of fair trade (for all its flaws, let's not digress into those here) are not about the end product's cost.

Re: Teaching my MIT classes with only free/libre software

#122
post #76

For a professor to use only FLOSS when teaching CS students about software engineering seems entirely appropriate to me, and a good on-principle exercise. Consider the goals of universal accessibility of education, reproducible systems research that can be built upon, allowing students to explore and improve systems, techie obligations to promote privacy and security in information systems, and simply setting an exam…

...but he doesn't really talk about what trade-offs he was forced to make.

He mentions that classes were broadcast with Jitsi Meet - but has anyone else used that and can comment on quality for a large class - say when doing Q&A in class?

Re: Teaching my MIT classes with only free/libre software

#123
post #76

For a professor to use only FLOSS when teaching CS students about software engineering seems entirely appropriate to me, and a good on-principle exercise. Consider the goals of universal accessibility of education, reproducible systems research that can be built upon, allowing students to explore and improve systems, techie obligations to promote privacy and security in information systems, and simply setting an exam…

...but he doesn't really talk about what trade-offs he was forced to make. He mentions that classes were broadcast with Jitsi Meet - but has anyone else used that and can comment on quality for a large class - say when doing Q&A in class?

I've been in a couple meetings with Jitsi with up to about 20 people and it seemed to work fairly well although they were just interactive discussions and didn't involve screen sharing or other features along those lines. You get much bigger than that and you're tending to lean on chat/Q&A in a classroom/presentation format anyway.

Re: Teaching my MIT classes with only free/libre software

#124
post #66
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still don't see the relevance. How does this relate in any way to "proprietary vs free/libre" software used in classes?

Proprietary sw: easy to use/maintain, fun, works most of the time, professional developers behind it, profit. Open source sw these days: several versions, constant tweaking, works so-so (depends on the software), semi-professional developers working on it (I am not saying they're not good) or amateurs (with amateur designs), not for profit, of course. EDIT: remove double 'multiple versions'.

Proprietary sw: once discontinued for one reason or another, you're pretty much fucked up

OSS: You can still manage to sorta make it work

I guess my point is, if the software GP talked about was proprietary, he wouldn't have known what was wrong in the first place.

Re: Teaching my MIT classes with only free/libre software

#125
post #76

For a professor to use only FLOSS when teaching CS students about software engineering seems entirely appropriate to me, and a good on-principle exercise. Consider the goals of universal accessibility of education, reproducible systems research that can be built upon, allowing students to explore and improve systems, techie obligations to promote privacy and security in information systems, and simply setting an exam…

Sussman is not just "a professor at MIT." He's one of the inventors of Scheme and one of the authors of SICP. And perhaps most apropos for this article, one of the founders of the FSF, along with of course RMS.

Re: Teaching my MIT classes with only free/libre software

#126

I think one of the nicer points to take away here is that prof. Sussman worked around remote teaching problems not by getting bogged down in meetings, but by calling a friendly admin and by himself installing a piece of free software on a computer he had lying around in his lab. Free Software gives you back the agency to solve your problems in any way you see fit(be they hacks or not). It doesn't leave you helpless a…

Unless you don't know how to fix something and the only people that do are goodwilling 3rd parties

Re: Teaching my MIT classes with only free/libre software

#127
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I gave you an example by quoting how expensive it is to run a "free" jitsi service.

> "I gave you an example by quoting how expensive it is to run a "free" jitsi service." That's an entirely meaningless argument. Here's what you're doing: > "I run a large-ish jitsi instance: approx €50/month just for the VPS, my hours probably add another €2000/month to that." Here's what Sussman is doing: > "I used a Jitsi Meet server that I installed on an obsolete and otherwise useless computer that was sitting i…

"It made available licenses for various nonfree programs, but I objected to them on grounds of principle.".

Which is to say Sussman could effectively, for the purposes of this course, get _any_ license for free-as-in-beer.

So the actual decision would purely be on some other grounds. Since Sussman is a world renowned CS teacher, I choose to believe he made his choice based solely on whether it was most suitable to teaching CS.

(This is not an unreasonable belief: The concept of "Free Software" guarantees that the student is able to take the software apart to see what makes it tick. That is obviously a very valuable property when learning how things work!)

Re: Teaching my MIT classes with only free/libre software

#128
post #76

For a professor to use only FLOSS when teaching CS students about software engineering seems entirely appropriate to me, and a good on-principle exercise. Consider the goals of universal accessibility of education, reproducible systems research that can be built upon, allowing students to explore and improve systems, techie obligations to promote privacy and security in information systems, and simply setting an exam…

Sussman is not just "a professor at MIT." He's one of the inventors of Scheme and one of the authors of SICP. And perhaps most apropos for this article, one of the founders of the FSF, along with of course RMS.

Nowhere in the comment to which you're replying was Sussman called just a professor.

Re: Teaching my MIT classes with only free/libre software

#129
I teach at a world ranking university in the UK which has decided that in order to have a 'standardised student experience' teachers are prohibited from running their own FLOSS setup when there are proprietary contracts in place. Sorry but MS Teams is not designed with teaching in mind. I've been advocating for Big Blue Button and Jitsi but effectively told to shut up. It's infuriating.

Re: Teaching my MIT classes with only free/libre software

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're just some guy who writes and updates a piece of software for a living, what do you do then?

You find people willing to pay for your work, not for a license. If your ongoing work is not worth anything, why should you be paid extra for work you did in the past?

>If your ongoing work is not worth anything, why should you be paid extra for work you did in the past?

If you write a piece of software that took you a year to write but buyers are only willing to pay $500 for then do (A) live on $500 or (b) try to sell to many buyers including some in the future? You seem to be saying (b) is out of the question but if it is who will write the software these people wish to buy?

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