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Apple will announce move to ARM-based Macs later this month

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Re: Apple will announce move to ARM-based Macs later this month

#121

Post by leejoramo »

cptskippy wrote: post #75
z9e wrote: post #13

I envision there being a lot of ARM support issues across apps that I rely on. We finally got over the keyboard drama, I don't have confidence this will go well either.

Well they've already figured out multi-targeting in XCode and gave done this once before so I would imagine for a lot of developers it will just be a recompile. I saw a really cheap MacBook Air deal the other day and was tempted until I saw they're i3 based. Assuming App support, I could see them replace that with an ARM based CPU without anyone noticing.

Yes Apple has mastered multi-targeting. Apple has completed MANY major transitions 68k -> PPC -> Mac OS X -> Intel -> a near perfect 64bit transition.

Then there is the NeXT side that ran on 68k, x86, PA-RISC, and SPARC

Of course OS X was the foundation to iOS

I think the forced death of 32bit apps last year entirely in preparation for moving to ARM.

Re: Apple will announce move to ARM-based Macs later this month

#122

Post by nsajko »

mthoms wrote: post #109
pathartl wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the biggest problems with absolute data loss for current Apple machines is the T2 chip dying.

Can you expand on that?

T2 encrypts everything, so when it fails, you lose your stored data.

EDIT: also see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23076929

Re: Apple will announce move to ARM-based Macs later this month

#123

Post by Alex3917 »

mthoms wrote: post #109
pathartl wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the biggest problems with absolute data loss for current Apple machines is the T2 chip dying.

Can you expand on that?

There seems to be a bug where the chip will effectively change the master password for your encrypted disk to something random and leave you unable to access any data. I'm not sure on the details, but I've seen that happen. You might still be able to recover the data if you have iCloud reset enabled for firevault, but that obviously comes with its own risks.

Basically just never go more than 24 hours without backing up, one is none, keep multiple offsite backups, etc.

Re: Apple will announce move to ARM-based Macs later this month

#124

Post by tenebrisalietum »

rzzzt wrote: post #119
tenebrisalietum wrote: post #47

What's been going on with the embedded ME/PSP in x86-compatible hardware for the last 10 years is ugly. If this is real--I'm hoping this evolves into a real alternative to that architecture though it's possible it could start doing the same thing.

Do you see any major differences between a T2-backed system and an ME/PSP one? How about TrustZone?

I really have to do some research on this. I haven't because I have not really been planning on purchasing a MAC. Here's some questions I would want to have answers to.

- Does the T2 have a private uncontrolled connection to system RAM? I know it has some connection to the onboard SSD, other IO and serves as an enclave for platform keys.

- Does the T2 have a private bus/connection to any onboard Ethernet adapter or Wifi like ME does?

- Does the T2 serve as the foundation of remote management features (that are present in all CPUs even if not vPro enabled) like ME does? This is important because it means that it's supposed to be accessed remotely by design.

- Does the T2 serve as the foundation of anti-theft features like ME does? This facility also has remote-access-by-design components.

- Does the T2 serve as the foundation of Protected Video or Audio path type features?

- What can the T2 make the CPU do? Can the T2 freeze the CPU, redirect the CPU to other code, then restore CPU state (I'm fairly sure the ME can do this)

- Intel CPU's have a built-in display adapter and you can't really disable or sidestep it. Hence, there is no separation between what is on the screen and the CPU, and by proxy the ME. To what extent can the T2 modify video RAM without the CPU knowing?

Re: Apple will announce move to ARM-based Macs later this month

#125

Post by dathinab »

snazz wrote: post #91
int_19h wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An app that isn't updated in 12 months isn't necessarily "abandoned". It can also be complete.

Yes, but recompiling it for a new processor architecture shouldn't be a huge energy expenditure. For better or worse, applications meant to run on "moving target" operating systems like macOS need to be updated.

Except if it used Atomics in a slightly wrong way and it just happened to work on x86 but now will lead to all kind of unexpected failures ARM which has a weaker default memory guarantees.

If you run into this it can:

1. take a while until you aware there is a bug (as it likely only happens spurious potentially with different effects every time)

2. take quite longer to somewhat pin down

3. And if you have not atomic experience and the bug is in a library might be outside of your skill/payment level to fix requiring major rewrites. And all of this parallel to all the other work you have to do.

=> While this should be rather easy for many app for some it might be a nightmare which is combined with the regularly planed work might very well take many month, after customers start using it and run into the bug.

Re: Apple will announce move to ARM-based Macs later this month

#126

Post by dathinab »

zapzupnz wrote: post #16
ccmcarey wrote: post #10

Interesting. I imagine they'll have to provide some sort of x86/amd64 compat layer as otherwise this kills every application available for macos right now. I hope they don't also continue to lock down macos (though I imagine they intend to) by restricting applications to only being available from the app store. That would set a terrible precedent for personal computing.

> I imagine they'll have to provide some sort of x86/amd64 compat layer Just like they did with the mk86->ppc transition, just like they did with the ppc->x86 transition. > I hope they don't also continue to lock down macos Let's not confuse moving Macs to ARM processors with turning Macs into iOS devices. Apple has always treated the OS families differently and will continue to do so because they know more than anyb…

> Let's not confuse moving Macs to ARM processors with turning Macs into iOS devices.

I wouldn't be surprised if they just do that. Ship the lower end laptops with ARM and either an extended iOS or a constrained MacOS.

> Apple has always treated the OS families differently and will continue to do so because they know more than anybody that they meet different needs.

But the different needs part only really applies for the high end Mac Books and from apples POV might no longer be a think if you can develop Swift/Objective-C and similar on iOS.

Re: Apple will announce move to ARM-based Macs later this month

#127

Post by whatshisface »

wayneftw wrote: post #114
whatshisface wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can run your own code on an iPhone if you have a developer account. They could easily do the same for the Mac.

...for 7 days. Then you have to plug your iPhone back into your Mac and re-compile the software and reinstall it. It’s an extremely shitty limitation that Apple put in place to give the appearance that they allow sideloading.

Sounds like the future for Mac on the desktop.

Re: Apple will announce move to ARM-based Macs later this month

#128

Post by antipaul »

darrmit wrote: post #82
antipaul wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Catalina, I see the move towards these macOS & iOS compatible apps ("Catalyst") as making it easier to develop apps for both. It's a service for developers, if you will (I am not an app developer!) I don't necessarily see it as trying to create a single OS for both desktop and mobile.

To be clear: I’m not saying they’re trying to create a single OS. I’m saying the “Apple knows best” concepts they’re applying to macOS that are seemingly inspired by iOS are very hostile to a large part of their user base.

Fair, thanks for clarifying!

I, in fact, find the catalyst apps on macOS still needing work. And I’m talking the Apple ones: Music, News

Re: Apple will announce move to ARM-based Macs later this month

#129

Post by dathinab »

efficax wrote: post #32
ccmcarey wrote: post #10

Interesting. I imagine they'll have to provide some sort of x86/amd64 compat layer as otherwise this kills every application available for macos right now. I hope they don't also continue to lock down macos (though I imagine they intend to) by restricting applications to only being available from the app store. That would set a terrible precedent for personal computing.

Likely you'll just be able to ship fat applications that have binaries for x86 and ARM code with one click in Xcode

That is if you have a Apple only application using Swift/Objectiv-C maybe C/C++.

Also don't forget that ARM has weaker memory ordering, so expect to see some fallout from not completely correctly written atomics/lock-free code.

Re: Apple will announce move to ARM-based Macs later this month

#130

Post by lumost »

slantyyz wrote: post #25
ccmcarey wrote: post #10

Interesting. I imagine they'll have to provide some sort of x86/amd64 compat layer as otherwise this kills every application available for macos right now. I hope they don't also continue to lock down macos (though I imagine they intend to) by restricting applications to only being available from the app store. That would set a terrible precedent for personal computing.

I would guess that they'd target these to light usage consumers first, i.e., the people who are somewhere in that weird place between ipads (but not pro) and macbook airs. I tend to think that Safari, iPhoto, iMovie iWork, Mail, Calendar and maybe Office support (initially) would be more than enough for that segment of users.

Shipping for the high end first may also be a statement. It would motivate flagship app developers to invest in arm optimizations.
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