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How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

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Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One big problem is that the elected after being elected, choose to not follow or dilute those promises. There is no accountability. So time and again, democracy fails as they just change their minds after being elected. There is this "damping" factor like a mechanical system, that takes the energy out of the people's hands and dampens it with lobbying, dishonesty, unaccountability and complete neglect for public inte…

I’m not sure it’s quite so simple as “they change their mind”. In a republic where deal-making has to happen, if you ran on W, X, Y, and Z, you might have to compromise on Z to get W, X, and a watered-down version of Y. Doesn’t mean you changed your mind on Z or strict-Y, but you can’t get everything you want because other Americans want other things and they can’t get everything they want either. Maybe a lesser poli…

I think you're providing a great perspective into the complexity of the problem. If it was easy and straight forward, I presume it would have been solved a long ago. Penalty is tricky because the analysis of the problem has gray areas and its not strictly black or white. We need an umpire that can enforce and have oversight.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#122
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cannot condone violence nor encourage it, but you have to admit that the first few protests and property damage drastically influenced the quick arrest of an officer that may not have been arrested or even fired if it didn't happen. The non-violent protests of Colin Kaepernick were mocked and used to rally the other side and just weren't effective. The problem here is not the violence, but a policing system that is…

"See, people with power understand exactly one thing: violence." - Noam Chomsky.

I've been pretty happy that pretty much everyone (left, right, white, black, etc) agrees that the rioting and looting are just opportunistic violence and not actually part of the protest or "sending a message to people with power". Defending or promoting violence of any kind is repugnant, doubly so when it's directed toward impoverished communities.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#123
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A policy or law that enforces a certain behavior that contradicts culture, would, by definition be undemocratic. A policy or law that enforces a certain behavior that is already present as a strong cultural norm, would be redundant.

There is an extremely strong cultural and behavioral norm against murder. I do not find laws against it to be redundant.

Fair. Although, my point was to suggest checking the tendency of rushing into legislation. Laws are discovered, not made.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#124
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the real problem is that those two political parties represent factions of the population with incompatible values. We don't need more political parties, we need solutions to manage the incompatibility.

I wonder if things would be better if there was some mandatory thing like jury duty where you had to go meet and hang out for an hour with a different randomly picked person every a month at some center where they'd have something for you to do so it's not 100% awkward. I realize that's a terrible idea, but not sure of any way of changing people's attitudes towards each other when they'd rather stick to their little…

I tend to think people's attitudes come from too much diversity rather than too little.

The most diverse places I've ever been are also the most visibly segregated and racially aware (but not in a good way). Meanwhile, I see the most tolerance for others in homogeneous places.

I wonder if this is borne out in any studies.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#125

> So let’s not excuse violence, or rationalize it, or participate in it. Taboos around violence for political are one of the crucial building blocks for a functioning democracy. If those taboos are broken, even for a good cause, you set a precedence that violence works. And the next cause won’t be as good. One only has to look at the lessons of the Roman Revolution that started with the murder of Grachus, and ended w…

Taboo is the exact right word for that.

In particular, the Gracchi violated an unspoken and unwritten compact that governed the behavior of the Roman aristocracy. In particular, they attempted to secure power for themselves using avenues not considered "in bounds". There was no institutional mechanism in place to process violations of that unwritten compact (social opprobrium had worked for hundreds of years), so the senators (Scipio Nasica in particular) immediately transitioned to personal violence.

Once the taboo against aristocrat-on-aristocrat violence vanished, Rome descended into waves of high aristocrats raising private armies to secure their personal power. It was, more or less, a game of last man standing that Augustus "won".

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#126
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You suggestion make sense to me, why haven't they been implemented? Is it lack of political will or lack of money?

The police get unbelievably huge amounts of money (like serious amounts of money) so it's not that. Yesterday police in Columbus, Ohio replaced the American flag flying outside of their headquarters with a "Blue line" police flag. Just hours ago representatives of our nation's largest police force, the NYPD, posted on twitter the home address of the mayor's adult daughter. It's a lack of political will, but that's ki…

I didn't believe the comment about doxing the daughter of the mayor of NYC, but here it is:

"The SBA [Sergeant's Benevolent Association], run by union boss Ed Mullins, the mayor’s fiercest critic, included a photo of a computer screen which appeared to be his 25-year-old daughter’s arrest report. The report included her date of birth, New York state ID number, and various biographical details, such as height, weight, and citizenship status. It also included an apartment number and home address, which appeared to be Gracie Mansion, the mayor’s residence (though the zip code did not match.)

"Twitter’s policies expressly forbid users from posting personal information, including identity documents, including government-issued IDs. Posting home addresses “or other identifying information related to locations that are considered private” is also forbidden.

"The SBA’s tweet remained up for more than an hour before eventually being taken down after a several users (including this reporter) flagged the tweet for abuse. The account was temporarily locked until the tweet was voluntarily deleted."

https://gizmodo.com/nypd-union-doxes-mayors-daughter-on-twit...

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#127
A couple of thoughts:

Racism is an issue, but I wonder in the case of police the abuse the issue could be more generally described as one of class?

There was an incident a few years ago in my state were police picked a white guy up who had been convicted of methamphetamine possession a few times. I'll describe the guy as a "scraggly white guy". He was dirty, unkempt, skinny, poor spoken in an old vehicle. The cops I believe were Hispanic. So the decide he is hiding meth on him, search him, push him around a little. Then they drive him to the hospital and force several enemas on him. Which turn up nothing. Then the hospital sends him a bill for the "service". It's egregious and he is rightfully suing. Is this a race issue?

If George Floyd had looked like Obama or OJ Simpson, had been driving a nice car in nice clothes and was well spoken and had no priors would he have been treated the same? I don't think so, particularly if it appeared he had means to get a good lawyer.

Please don't misunderstand, I'm not saying racism isn't an issue. It is and it exists. But the problems with police brutality seem almost as much a class issue. In fact you can see no shortage of black cops. But the problems still keep happening. Addressing this is long overdue but perhaps the lens should be expanded?

Thought #2:

People believe and are suggesting to make their voices really heard engaging in violence and unrelated property destruction is appropriate. I guess the thinking goes this will force systemic change.

Here's the systemic change I see coming from that. Increased support for surveillance. Scaring the average joe middle class person into voting for law and order candidates. A few hundred people rioting aren't going to overturn capitalism. Capitalism is well embedded and a little scratch isn't going to harm it, nor is this kind of behavior likely to change public sentiment. However it does make it easier to lump everyone (rightfully) upset with police brutality into the camp of crazy destructive anarchists. So I think it's going to turn out to be a counterproductive move. The massive peaceful marches were much wiser and also get effects believe it or not. When elected politicians see that many folks that energized they ignore at their own peril.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#128

> So let’s not excuse violence, or rationalize it, or participate in it. Taboos around violence for political are one of the crucial building blocks for a functioning democracy. If those taboos are broken, even for a good cause, you set a precedence that violence works. And the next cause won’t be as good. One only has to look at the lessons of the Roman Revolution that started with the murder of Grachus, and ended w…

> If those taboos are broken, even for a good cause, you set a precedence that violence works.

Violence like that does not work by itself. It only works if you have "legitimate" institutions that are willing to excuse or downplay the violence that occurs.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#129
> "So the bottom line is this: if we want to bring about real change, then the choice isn’t between protest and politics. We have to do both. We have to mobilize to raise awareness, and we have to organize and cast our ballots to make sure that we elect candidates who will act on reform."

obama spends the first 7 paragraphs explaining the ideals of government and the vulgarity of violence, and somehow ends up on this "bottom line": let's both (peacefully) protest and politic.

with all due respect, his perspective is subverted by the unique privilege and prestige that only comes with being a past president, from having played the game and won, and reads as out of touch with the needs and desires of most black folks. those folks are tired of waiting and being told to be nice and polite and civil while the police kill members of their community at random.

let's appreciate the need to work the political system the way it was designed--to be slow, deliberate and inefficient--but let's not lose touch with the long violence and oppression of the system against people of color, principally black and brown folks. let's not lose touch with the immediacy and direction of the need that necessarily supercedes slowly meandering civil discourse.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#130
post #25

> So let’s not excuse violence, or rationalize it, or participate in it. Taboos around violence for political are one of the crucial building blocks for a functioning democracy. If those taboos are broken, even for a good cause, you set a precedence that violence works. And the next cause won’t be as good. One only has to look at the lessons of the Roman Revolution that started with the murder of Grachus, and ended w…

I don't condone violence, but at the same time you have to acknowledge that modern American democracy was built on the foundation of political violence. It worked for us.

America rebelled precisely because we didn't have a meaningfully representative form of government? People couldn't vote for the reforms they wanted because there wasn't a democracy. Rebellion against an overtly oppressive tyrant as a last resort for the right to representation is different than the opportunistic violence that we're seeing today.
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