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Hong Kong’s security law is going to devastate its economy

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Re: Hong Kong’s security law is going to devastate its economy

#121

Post by sangnoir »

ww520 wrote: post #108

This is better understood in the context of Hong Kong's trade relating to China. HK import volume 2018: USD $627 billion [1] HK export volume 2018: USD $568 billion [2] The top 2 imports are: (see [3]) 1. Electrical machinery, equipment: US$307.7 billion (53.2% of total imports) 2. Machinery including computers: US$66.4 billion (11.5%) HK has only 7 million people. There's no way it can consume that much import nor p…

I don't believe China is currently under any trading sanctions - did you mean they are evading tariffs?

Re: Hong Kong’s security law is going to devastate its economy

#122

Post by ww520 »

sangnoir wrote: post #121
ww520 wrote: post #108

This is better understood in the context of Hong Kong's trade relating to China. HK import volume 2018: USD $627 billion [1] HK export volume 2018: USD $568 billion [2] The top 2 imports are: (see [3]) 1. Electrical machinery, equipment: US$307.7 billion (53.2% of total imports) 2. Machinery including computers: US$66.4 billion (11.5%) HK has only 7 million people. There's no way it can consume that much import nor p…

I don't believe China is currently under any trading sanctions - did you mean they are evading tariffs?

Not sure it's sanctions or tariffs, just there're $307 billion worth of machine equipment per year they cannot buy directly.

Re: Hong Kong’s security law is going to devastate its economy

#123

Post by chrischen »

spacehunt wrote: post #110
chrischen wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Trump started learning the local dialect (English), that doesn’t suddenly make him legitimately represent all English speakers. And actually the last of the British governors tried to increase democracy. While the PRC blocked it because it was in their interest to do so, the HK people didn’t exactly fight for it or make it easy. I can stand behind a Democracy movement, but find it harder to palate a political powe…

> the HK people didn’t exactly fight for it People tend not to demand a democratic system until they are dissatisfied with the governance. > or make it easy I still don't see how you've come to this conclusion. > I can stand behind a Democracy movement, but find it harder to palate a political power grab. Any democracy movement is by definition a political power grab.

A large part of the gay rights movement come from supporters of human rights, not just people trying to protect their self interests.

The problem is there are a lot of third parties in play in HK and if I'm going to support Democracy I want to be sure that's what I'm supporting. If it's poor governance, I want to be sure I'm supporting good governance. If it's poor housing policy, I want to support good housing policy movements. I don't want to be a pawn in a proxy political war between Eastern powers and Western powers while my own democratic rights are being eroded by the US senate.

Re: Hong Kong’s security law is going to devastate its economy

#124

Post by blackrock »

You have to wonder about the hypocrisy about all this. Every country, every territory, all over the world, has anti-sedition laws.

Hong Kong, as part of the agreement between China and Britain, must enact their own security and anti-sedition laws. They had 23 years to do it!

Hong Kong failed to do so.

Now, a security law, is going to be shoved down their throats, whether they like it or not.

Foreign forces have successfully infiltrated Hong Kong, and brainwashed the young, into believing what the western world wanted them to believe.

The white western nations love Hong Kong for what it is, because the place is lawless. Capitalism is unbridled over there. It’s predatory, and it eats the young, and the poor. The rich take all the spoils. It’s about laws that favors the rich.

But really, Britain should step up, and give these Hong Kong residents, the right to British citizenship. They extracted trillions of dollars from China, from their plunders during their opium terrorism reign. It’s time to give back what they owe. But I doubt it. The British don’t have any morals or balls to do anything. They’re all talk.

Re: Hong Kong’s security law is going to devastate its economy

#125

Post by jcytong »

supernova87a wrote: post #90
spyckie2 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The founding fathers of the US did not write the US constitution with practical freedom in mind. They wrote it with the principles of freedom as sacred. The battles they fought weren't for being able to buy groceries or walk the streets. They fought the battles over things like the right to not being taxed, to not be under the bank of England's monetary regulations, to have their own voice in the political system and…

Well, I ask again -- the specific proposed laws under discussion don't touch on any of those principles. They're about sedition, secession, national security, terrorism, etc. We have laws about those things too in the US. So is this actually an argument about the influence / authority of China and the extent of their power, or about the specific laws being passed? Or is it about making sure the 27 years left on the c…

> They're about sedition, secession, national security, terrorism, etc. We have laws about those things too in the US.

This is usually the reasoning for the CCP supporters that other countries have similar laws. That is true but this is not a similar comparison when you are talking about a democratic society where there are checks and balances like judicial independence.

The CCP has a track record to remove and silence its oppositions.[1] The proposed law will give the government even more power since it carries severe penalties and were used in the mainland to jail dissidents.[2]

> So is this actually an argument about the influence / authority of China and the extent of their power, or about the specific laws being passed?

Prior to this, HK carried over the British colony tradition of independence of judiciary, albeit slowing eroding since 1997. But if the bill is passed, it will be the first time that the Chinese government bypass the HK government to directly legislate. Hence the reaction from HK + the world

[1] https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3035285... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liu_Xiaobo#Arrest

Re: Hong Kong’s security law is going to devastate its economy

#126

Post by blackrock »

ww520 wrote: post #108

This is better understood in the context of Hong Kong's trade relating to China. HK import volume 2018: USD $627 billion [1] HK export volume 2018: USD $568 billion [2] The top 2 imports are: (see [3]) 1. Electrical machinery, equipment: US$307.7 billion (53.2% of total imports) 2. Machinery including computers: US$66.4 billion (11.5%) HK has only 7 million people. There's no way it can consume that much import nor p…

Plugging up the China gateway, also kills the billions of dollars in profits, that American companies make in China.

Look it up. Qualcomm now makes over 60% of their revenue from China! Just in Intellectual Property royalties alone.

Boeing, Coke, KFC, Microsoft, Apple, AMD, Intel, nVidia, Ford, GM, Starbucks, and on and on.. All American companies.

These companies depend on China, to make the cream of their profits, so they can pump that back into new research, to keep their edge.

Say goodbye to all those sweet juicy dollars.

Re: Hong Kong’s security law is going to devastate its economy

#127

Post by sangnoir »

ww520 wrote: post #122
sangnoir wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe China is currently under any trading sanctions - did you mean they are evading tariffs?

Not sure it's sanctions or tariffs, just there're $307 billion worth of machine equipment per year they cannot buy directly.

Did you account for value addition? It may be HK is in the middle of electronics value chains that start and end outside of its borders - I imagine Singapore has a similar import/export numbers it makes a lot of hard disks (export) but doesn't make a lot of chips (import). This doesn't imply Singapore is a front for another country

Re: Hong Kong’s security law is going to devastate its economy

#128

Post by yibg »

m-p-3 wrote: post #8

And the real losers in this fight here are Hongkongese citizens, who fought for their freedom and ultimately are losing it, on top of facing an economic crisis.

Personally I'm saddened by this. I have a lot of friends there that I worry about and I've been fond of Hong Kong the way it was even a decade ago.

I'm afraid it'll never be the same.

Re: Hong Kong’s security law is going to devastate its economy

#129

Post by [deleted] »

aianus wrote: post #72
chrischen wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What i meant was it was under British rule prior to China. The British ruler was literally appointed by outsiders. From an American perspective it’s more about losing a territory under Allied jurisdiction. From the local perspective it’s about losing independence rights—though they didn’t really have that right under British rule either.

Towards the end, it was only under direct British rule because China threatened to invade if the British gave them self-governance. https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/28/world/asia/china-began-pu...

[deleted]

Re: Hong Kong’s security law is going to devastate its economy

#130

Post by jcytong »

chrischen wrote: post #89
av_engr wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see, you meant true independence as a nation? Hong Kong has a very complex history and culture about independence. To be brief, majority of Hong Kongers never wanted independence as a country. (It's weird but there was a split of people being pro-China and pro-UK) The thought of Hong Kong independence has been around for long but didn't become major topic and a significant opinion until recent years (after 2014-201…

I mean true Democracy and government and representation by the people. There’s two way’s to characterize the protests: I don’t like China or I want Democracy. PRC put strong pressure against Democracy in HK back during British rule, probably because it would set a precedent for after the handover. And despite the last few British governors pushing to increase Democratic processes many efforts for that were stalled by…

What started as "I want Democracy", which was promised in the Sino-British Joint Declaration signed in 1984[1], slowly was pressured into something different.

As the CCP started to really apply pressure starting in 2014 after the umbrella revolution, HK people have been witnessing the erosion of their rights.

When the CCP labelled the protests as a separatist movement to justify to the West that these were simply "internal affairs/extremist movements", most in HK laughed at the idea of independence. It's CCP's narrative to align their online army and casual observers as anti-China/pro HK independence.

All HK wanted was to enjoy a high degree of autonomy and universal suffrage. Slowly HK people started to realize the CCP would never hold their end of the bargain and truly give democracy to the HK people. So what was CCP's fake news campaign became reality and it's now turning into a HK independence and anti-China campaign.

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-British_Joint_Declaration

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