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Finding new physics will require a new particle collider

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Re: Finding new physics will require a new particle collider

#121
post #75

Sounds like the particle collider people are having tunnel vision. "1 after the new particle collider": Guess what? we need an even bigger particle collider. What we really need is to build one on the moon.

It is not tunnel vision when the problem they're tackling is literally stuck in a tunnel. Bigger and bigger colliders are the only direct way we have to study high energy phenomena. It's not that physicists are lazy, it's that the problems they're studying are hard. I'm also seeing a lot resentment for the price tag of colliders in this thread. My personal opinion is that we shouldn't build a new one, but I'll point…

Comparing the cost against defense spending, which has a reputation for waste, doesn't convince me. If the cost is similar to two B-2 bombers and one thinks that the B-2 bomber is overpriced, one would probably also think that the LHC is overpriced.

To me, bringing up that the WWW, fancy PET scans, etc. came in part from HEP and therefore we should be grateful is missing one major point. In the WWW case, in an alternative history it seems likely to me that some other project would have developed something similar around the same time if the funding were allocated differently. As for the other benefits, I think if the money were allocated towards research in those areas it would have been more effectively spent.

Ultimately I think the worst "cost" for HEP in general (not just colliders) is that it encourages something like brain drain on other fields. I think that people interested in certain mostly non-practical areas of physics like HEP would do the world a lot more good if they instead got a PhD in some field of engineering or CS, or at the very least a more practical area of "physics". Here I refer to physics in the descriptive sense which doesn't align well with the prescriptive definition of physics. E.g., I don't understand why fluid dynamics is not "physics" in that it's rarely researched in physics departments (unless studied indirectly in chaos theory or plasma physics). Must be too Newtonian for people to care. (For what it's worth I'm at the end of a PhD in mechanical engineering studying fluid dynamics.)

Re: Finding new physics will require a new particle collider

#122
post #96
post #93

> A minifigure, 3 blocks high, is repesentative of an average American adult, at 1.753 meters tall Shouldn't it be the height of an average adult from Denmark? At 1.672m (edit: closer to 1.8) it's a big enough difference to matter. The inaccuracies in this article are disgusting! This is a serious matter that has numerous implications, and is definitely not a joke. Edit: I meant to post this somewhere else. Sorry.

I think you’ve misspelled ‘9’ as ‘6’.

I accidentally grabbed the number for average female height. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Re: Finding new physics will require a new particle collider

#123
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course they do because their jobs depend on it. And nothing in this field has ever been done in a time-frame of a few years. It is a simple matter of voltage gradient. The higher the frequency, the steeper the gradient.

> The higher the frequency, the steeper the gradient. Losses also scale with frequency. And while other acceleration principles have higher voltage gradient, they still can't reach TeV of collision energy, since you either can't concatenate them, or you can't control the beam sufficiently well. As I wrote in another comment, stuff like plasma wakefield accelerators need to get better by a factor of 1000 before they r…

I'll excuse you trying to make this personal and focus on the tangibles...

Losses in a waveguide are miniscule because plasma is almost as good a conductor as a superconductor. Most of the energy is carried in the dielectric anyway.

Technology is already being developed as ASIC PHYs for commercial applications as THz MIMO radios for the next generation of mobile networks. No doubt the next generation of accelerators will rely heavily on beam-forming, perhaps already in wakefield accelerators. If you are unfamiliar with ASICs, they are what enabled CD-ROM audio to use solomon-reed error correction while it was thought only a supercomputer could do that in realtime.

Lasers already constitute an strange accelerator principle, able to seemingly circumvent a naive understanding of thermodynamics by rectifying energy in space. So don't scoff it. Extreme Light Infrastructure currently under construction will be able to perform nuclear transmutation. Far beyond that, and far beyond the capabilities of any theoretical radio-frequency accelerator, lies lasers powered by nuclear isomers.

Re: Finding new physics will require a new particle collider

#124
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I post this every time someone links to Hossenfelder, but please take her opinions with a grain of salt. She seems more interested in attacking the "physics establishment" than in giving people a picture of the reality of our situation. Take a look at her articles on LIGO [1] for instance where she makes conspiracy theory level claims saying that the group is lying about their data and that "big physics" is in on it.…

For what it's worth, I usually find Sabine Hossenfelder to be insufferably critical and self-promoting, but I found that LIGO article fairly disturbing. As someone who has worked with complex analyses of large datasets, I know how easy it can be to fool yourself.

Certainly, and the LIGO is one big complicated dataset.

The problem is that Sabine Hossenfelder doesn't just make arguments about the data, but makes the researchers out to be villains. Not only that, but all of the problems she brings up have good community accepted resolutions that she selectively ignores.

I think that once we had multi-messenger confirmation of merger events, any doubt about gravitational wave detection vanished outside of some fringe groups. All of that happened and played out long before Hossenfelder's article, but she doesn't really give a fair representation of it.

Re: Finding new physics will require a new particle collider

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found a Physics Stackexchange thread addressing this.[1] The science of quantum mechanics was not necessary for its invention. I’m still uncertain of its direct application other than “at [1] https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/112615/why-is-it...

Hum... That thread goes a long way about diodes, but I couldn't find any such claim about transistors. Yeah, somebody would probably invent them at some point. Somebody would probably even invent FETs, even if it took many decades more. MOSFETs are a completely different matter, I don't think anybody would invent them without understanding how they work. What everybody seems to forget is modern chemistry, material en…

MOSFETs are simpler than bipolar transistors. Putting it very crudely, MOSFETs are based on the same space charge principles as vacuum valves, except they happen to use doped silicon instead of free electrons.

Bipolar transistors are more complex, but they still work by controlling the bulk geometry of moving charge.

None of this requires QM, except in the very simple sense that you need to know what a bandgap is and how doping changes it. Beyond that, the "mechanical" details of the charge dynamics are just calculus - even more crudely, very very small plumbing.

QM effects are only relevant when the simple space charge models start to break down at very small geometries. Your "mechanical" space charge model becomes soft, noisy, and more complicated. Essentially the plumbing develops waves and ripples that depend on the geometry, and the edges of the pools and pipes can start to leak. And that's where QM finally starts to make a real difference.

Re: Finding new physics will require a new particle collider

#126
post #70

My personal opinion (and I might be biased since I'm not a collider guy) is that it's time to take a break from the energy frontier and put our efforts into other kinds of physics. There's a whole world out there besides "fixing" the standard model. I'm having a hard time finding it, but there's a quote from a famous physicist along the lines of "we already have a theory of everything we encounter in daily life, it's…

Yeah, there seems to be a lot of interesting areas in, for example, condensed matter physics[1] such as topological insulators[2] which appear have a lot higher chance of having a measurable impact on our lives.

That said, there's a lot of know-how in building the complex parts that make up the accelerators and detectors, reducing the HEP investments could erode that know-how.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condensed_matter_physics

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topological_insulator#Properti...

Re: Finding new physics will require a new particle collider

#127
post #70

My personal opinion (and I might be biased since I'm not a collider guy) is that it's time to take a break from the energy frontier and put our efforts into other kinds of physics. There's a whole world out there besides "fixing" the standard model. I'm having a hard time finding it, but there's a quote from a famous physicist along the lines of "we already have a theory of everything we encounter in daily life, it's…

If nothing else it's bad timing. What we need right now is a giant global investment in pandemic vaccination factories and distribution systems.

Re: Finding new physics will require a new particle collider

#128
post #70

My personal opinion (and I might be biased since I'm not a collider guy) is that it's time to take a break from the energy frontier and put our efforts into other kinds of physics. There's a whole world out there besides "fixing" the standard model. I'm having a hard time finding it, but there's a quote from a famous physicist along the lines of "we already have a theory of everything we encounter in daily life, it's…

Yeah, there seems to be a lot of interesting areas in, for example, condensed matter physics[1] such as topological insulators[2] which appear have a lot higher chance of having a measurable impact on our lives. That said, there's a lot of know-how in building the complex parts that make up the accelerators and detectors, reducing the HEP investments could erode that know-how. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conde…

I'd contest that second point. I'm actually one of those people that builds the parts that make accelerators (accelerator physics PhD student). There's a lot more interesting accelerator tech outside of the energy frontier.

My specific interests for instance are how we can build university scale light and matter sources for atomic physics. It requires the same types of advances that will power future colliders, but enables different types of research.

Re: Finding new physics will require a new particle collider

#129
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what it's worth, I usually find Sabine Hossenfelder to be insufferably critical and self-promoting, but I found that LIGO article fairly disturbing. As someone who has worked with complex analyses of large datasets, I know how easy it can be to fool yourself.

Certainly, and the LIGO is one big complicated dataset. The problem is that Sabine Hossenfelder doesn't just make arguments about the data, but makes the researchers out to be villains. Not only that, but all of the problems she brings up have good community accepted resolutions that she selectively ignores. I think that once we had multi-messenger confirmation of merger events, any doubt about gravitational wave det…

Not to defend her, but to defend listening to her...

Often the people in a position to give the most important feedback are _not_ in a position to give feedback gently and tactfully.

So if you want to really know the world, you need to have a check in your mind that lets you take tactless feedback.

One example is when you hurt someone... a person you hurt is almost never going to be in a position to gently, calmly say what happened in a fair, generous way. That kind of feedback almost always comes with barbs, or inflations that accompany a person trying to talk to someone who hurt them.

If you ignore tactless feedback, you will mostly never be able to understand the people you hurt.

Another category like this is feedback about norms. People who are well versed in norms and good at operating within them generally won’t be the people who can see outside of those same norms. The people who can see alternatives to norms, who can give feedback on where they work and don’t work, often will not be able to give that feedback in a way that conforms to other norms.

So if you ignore tactless feedback, you will mostly never be able to understand broken norms.

If you can separate the content of the message from how it’s delivered you can dramatically increase your access to understanding.

Re: Finding new physics will require a new particle collider

#130

Let's step back an perfect the physics we know. Perfect fission and fusion first! The short and long term benefits of that is more important the verifying for example the next Higgs boson. While verifying the Higgs is nice there are no practical applications for the knowledge.

Yes, let's "just" do that. But I guess we should make some restrictions: 1) Can't use the any of the theorists or experiementalists who had anything to do with the useless research of the LHC. 2) Can't use any of the hardware research required to make that discovery (all apparently useless): 2a) superconducting magnets 2b) high performance fpga computing 2c) particle detectors 3) Understanding of background physics (…

Superconducting magnets were in use well before their use in HEP colliders.

FPGA computing was in use in industry well before it was in use in HEP colliders.

Particle detectors have existed for more than 100 years. When was the first collider built?

Seriously, this is one of the issues I take with HEP advocates claiming that their field yielded all of these advances. Works well with politicians they have to lobby for funding their stuff. Doesn't work so well with other physicists.

HEP has utility, as all science does. Investment in it generally turns out useful items, even if the science is esoteric, and not applicable to problems in the world now.

However, and this is the crux of the problem, we have many items of significant priority. Which means we have to triage our expenditures. Is HEP and collider physics one of these high priorities right now?

In short, no. It shouldn't be.

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