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Why I’m Leaving Elm

lukeplant.me.uk

121–130 of 450 posts

Re: Why I’m Leaving Elm

#121
Having maintained an open source project for a while I relate to a lot of the problems brought up here.

It's really really hard to create a contribution system that works well when there is a large set of users, a large set of contributors, _and_ a tricky design space. It's tempting to become authoritarian, especially when the design space is complex and you've thought about it longer than anyone else. Inclusion is a shit ton of work, and a lot of it feels non-technical and boring to most people.

It's tempting to throw away compatibility and ask users to just deal with it. No project is perfect at this, but infrastructure stuff has a much higher bar for this than most other projects. That makes everything else that much harder.

Most tech culture undervalues management a lot, especially in open source. But open source should be valuing it more, because the problems are so much harder than in a small co-located one-company team -- communication is lower bandwidth and higher stakes, there's no way to manage other people's schedules, there's differing goals and incentives, and on and on.

Re: Why I’m Leaving Elm

#122
post #80

For me, the best thing I got from this critique was the link to this 2018 talk by Evan: The Hard Parts of Open Source, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_4EX4dPppA I found Evan's talking style really entertaining and enjoyable, and I totally relate to the first part about "why don't you just..." and "have you thought about delegation..."! The HN comments here are near uniformly negative towards Elm and supportive of L…

Reminds me a comment made by Rich Hickey https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15425632

Quoting top comment: “The presumption that everything is or ought to be a community endeavor is severely broken.”

I believe in the BDFL model but can see history repeating itself. Being open source doesn't mean everyone is equal, and it shouldn't

Re: Why I’m Leaving Elm

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He doesn't claim it's not possible, he claims that the Elm community will excommunicate you for forking. I can't think of a language or platform that doesn't have some degree of "soft" forking that maintains communion with the language community. It's common for proprietary reasons (linux kernel, anyone?) as well as experimental reasons (e.g. PyPy). So this is an eyebrow raising claim.

What would they do? I'm not sure there's an actual threat to follow through on. They can't block a forked compiler from, for example, using official packages without close-sourcing their own compiler (to prevent it from bringing in whatever change makes it work again). At that point, why bother respecting the threat? A forked compiler isn't going to get maintainers? A package depending on the forked compiler isn't go…

The community is more valuable than the code, because the community writes the code. So being cut off from the community is a major blow to a fork, and substantially increases their work burden.

Re: Why I’m Leaving Elm

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He doesn't claim it's not possible, he claims that the Elm community will excommunicate you for forking. I can't think of a language or platform that doesn't have some degree of "soft" forking that maintains communion with the language community. It's common for proprietary reasons (linux kernel, anyone?) as well as experimental reasons (e.g. PyPy). So this is an eyebrow raising claim.

What would they do? I'm not sure there's an actual threat to follow through on. They can't block a forked compiler from, for example, using official packages without close-sourcing their own compiler (to prevent it from bringing in whatever change makes it work again). At that point, why bother respecting the threat? A forked compiler isn't going to get maintainers? A package depending on the forked compiler isn't go…

This discussion about whether or not the "Elm community" will be meanies is missing the point and inventing a hypothetical scenario where you get kicked out of some club. Kind of a weird conjecture to me. I guarantee nobody truly cares that you fork Elm. The thing is that generally people who threaten to fork Elm are quite hostile on the Elm forums and subreddit.

If you fork Elm, an already tiny ecosystem, you'll realize that the hard part is building the community, not adding your pet features.

Everyone who has threatened to fork Elm has realized this at the end of the day. It's also why people overlook the lack of their pet features: because ecosystem is far more important.

Re: Why I’m Leaving Elm

#126
I will forever be grateful to Elm, for introducing me to Functional programming. And the helpful community. But a lot of things could've been handled differently in that community. e.g if Elm had been made sort of the route that ReasonML is trying to go i.e a functional ML wrapper around JS. with full inter-op without the message passing madness.

Re: Why I’m Leaving Elm

#127
post #114

I gave up on Elm years ago. It's kind of funny, I paid for the Elm in Action book that was partially written like 6 or 7 years ago. I got an email last week that it's finally finished. It's hilarious that the book has taken this long, probably because they had to rewrite it every release.

Mostly the same for me, but a "mere" 4 years ago. Absurd.

Re: Why I’m Leaving Elm

#128
post #80

For me, the best thing I got from this critique was the link to this 2018 talk by Evan: The Hard Parts of Open Source, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_4EX4dPppA I found Evan's talking style really entertaining and enjoyable, and I totally relate to the first part about "why don't you just..." and "have you thought about delegation..."! The HN comments here are near uniformly negative towards Elm and supportive of L…

> That came over to me as "you are obliged to do a lot more work that I want you to do, on your own time and personal cost, and to stop developing the project according to your own vision or you are a bad person". I mention this in my top-level comment, but here's Rich Hickey of Clojure responding to similar assertions: https://old.reddit.com/r/Clojure/comments/73yznc/on_whose_au... > Clojure was not originally prima…

Oh, I was knee jerked into replying this thread and didn't realised the same comment was made!

Re: Why I’m Leaving Elm

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is, but the community is pretty awesome and helpful, and anyone who knows Elm and takes the time to read at least one introductory Haskell book should be able to get productive pretty quickly.

Still lost many hours for asking and debugging, if it ever get answered. Companies don't care, business don't care. They care about shipping feature, easy to find developers. Try explaining that to your PM or boss. In the end money talks.

I think using Elm, PureScript, or any technology that has a community orders of magnitude smaller than well established safer alternatives would be a dubious decision. I never advocated bringing either into a professional environment. I simply stated that there is a viable alternative if someone is looking to play in the space.

Re: Why I’m Leaving Elm

#130
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. Author seems to confuse open source and open access. Or he may like them to be one and the same thing: though luck.

I'm not sure people saying this know that the author is one of the "core developers" of Django. It is safe to assume that his expectation of "open source" is not far-fetched at all. While you may have a point, language developed with closed process and just the source published in one of the famous code hosting sites need not emphasize on having a "community"[0] if it is not really looking to hear things from the "co…

In the light of the material you link to, "Why I'm Leaving Elm" does seem to expose a wee bit of hypocrisy there.
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