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Zoom’s encryption has links to China, researchers discover

theintercept.com

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Re: Zoom’s encryption has links to China, researchers discover

#121

Post by prophesi »

cvwright wrote: post #102
prophesi wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is ECB any worse than any other deterministic encryption? Yes, it's objectively worse than literally any other AES mode. You wouldn't need to depend on compression to protect your data.

Note that I was asking specifically about deterministic modes. Those include SIV mode [1] but not the more common CBC, CTR, etc. Any deterministic encryption relies on entropy of the plaintext for security [2]. This is not unique to ECB. My objection was to the hyperbolic phrase "trivially broken." SIV mode is deterministic, but nobody who understands what it does would call it "trivially broken." And I'm definitely…

I'm personally more upset that they're advertising 256bit AES yet using 128bit AES. Sure, 128bit is still fine to use today, but it's still false advertising. They're already falsely claiming end-to-end encryption. It doesn't help that they're using the weakest mode of AES on top of all of this.

If Zoom had a security audit, the auditors would quickly suggest using either some sort of ECB-based algorithm that uses an SIV, or just AES-CTR. I'm guessing they went with ECB due to its parallelization of the encryption/decryption process, which totally makes sense, except that there are much more secure algorithms out there.

Re: Zoom’s encryption has links to China, researchers discover

#122

Post by dang »

It seems like the root node of this article graph is https://citizenlab.ca/2020/04/move-fast-roll-your-own-crypto..., which is being discussed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22768494

Matthew Green's article is being discussed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22771193

Re: Zoom’s encryption has links to China, researchers discover

#123

Post by s_y_n_t_a_x »

dang wrote: post #117
s_y_n_t_a_x wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

If you keep taking HN threads further into political, nationalistic, or ideological flamewar, we are going to have to ban you. That's not because we agree or disagree. It's because such threads are predictable, therefore tedious, therefore boring, therefore off topic here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

I'm really finding it hard to please this rule. Would it be okay to say just:

> The difference is the US is a democracy and there are many more checks and balances vs the Chinese authoritarian government.

Re: Zoom’s encryption has links to China, researchers discover

#124

Post by dang »

s_y_n_t_a_x wrote: post #123
dang wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you keep taking HN threads further into political, nationalistic, or ideological flamewar, we are going to have to ban you. That's not because we agree or disagree. It's because such threads are predictable, therefore tedious, therefore boring, therefore off topic here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

I'm really finding it hard to please this rule. Would it be okay to say just: > The difference is the US is a democracy and there are many more checks and balances vs the Chinese authoritarian government.

Sure. I mean, it's not a particularly substantive comment but at least it gets the flamebait below whatever parts-per-million level should be the maximum here. I wouldn't have posted a moderation reply if you'd posted that instead.

Re: Zoom’s encryption has links to China, researchers discover

#125

Post by senderista »

senderista wrote: post #64

It’s hard to take the rest of the article seriously when they criticize Zoom for using 128-bit AES.

Downvoters: please name one scenario in which using AES with >128-bit keys adds any actual security margin, even in principle.

Re: Zoom’s encryption has links to China, researchers discover

#126

Post by xtian »

upofadown wrote: post #113
xtian wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you’re saying there should be a three-level consumer standard where the third level excludes any possible consumer product? Please don’t pretend that Apple and Zoom’s approaches are equivalent here. There is a substantial difference that deserves to be acknowledged. Anyone whose threat model includes Apple subverting their own security architecture shouldn’t be using any communication platforms.

There is nothing wrong with allowing a consumer to verify that they are talking to who they think they are talking to. Is Signal a consumer product? Zoom specifically states that they do not have access to session keys. Apple doesn't even make such a statement.

What prevents Signal from MITMing their app?

Re: Zoom’s encryption has links to China, researchers discover

#127

Post by upofadown »

xtian wrote: post #126
upofadown wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing wrong with allowing a consumer to verify that they are talking to who they think they are talking to. Is Signal a consumer product? Zoom specifically states that they do not have access to session keys. Apple doesn't even make such a statement.

What prevents Signal from MITMing their app?

The way everyone else does it. The user can verify the key fingerprint. Signal calls it the safety number.

Re: Zoom’s encryption has links to China, researchers discover

#130

Post by cvwright »

prophesi wrote: post #121
cvwright wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that I was asking specifically about deterministic modes. Those include SIV mode [1] but not the more common CBC, CTR, etc. Any deterministic encryption relies on entropy of the plaintext for security [2]. This is not unique to ECB. My objection was to the hyperbolic phrase "trivially broken." SIV mode is deterministic, but nobody who understands what it does would call it "trivially broken." And I'm definitely…

I'm personally more upset that they're advertising 256bit AES yet using 128bit AES. Sure, 128bit is still fine to use today, but it's still false advertising. They're already falsely claiming end-to-end encryption. It doesn't help that they're using the weakest mode of AES on top of all of this. If Zoom had a security audit, the auditors would quickly suggest using either some sort of ECB-based algorithm that uses an…

Yeah you have to wonder: Did they just not know about counter mode? The implications of that are frightening.
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