Singapore to Open Source Bluetooth Contact Tracing • Hacker News Board

Re: Singapore to Open Source Bluetooth Contact Tracing

#121

Post by Proziam » Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 11:41 PM UTC

throwanem wrote: post #111

Proziam wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the soldiers, firefighters, and doctors/nurses/EMTs (and many more) are putting their lives on the line for what they believe in. Some of them believe in the constitution and some of them simply desire to help their fellow man. Not everyone is so weak that they sell out others for their own benefit, and assuming the worst of others only serves to expose your values, or lack thereof. > I wish you joy of it. That w…

"The weak should be winnowed from the strong, that the strong may prosper without being held back" is an idea that attracts your sympathy, though?

You seem to love misrepresenting people's views, or perhaps you just really don't comprehend them.

No, I don't think the unfortunate should be harmed or taken advantage of. I also don't think anyone should be forced to surrender their rights to governments, period. Everyone should have an equal opportunity to prosper in this world. That is impossible so long as there's some 'higher power' manipulating the system to the advantage of one group or another.

I hate war. I hate when the police enforce evil policies and eviscerate the lives of innocent people. I hate when governments play god and overthrow other governments for the financial gain of a select few.

You know what else I hate? When governments cover up the truth and cause massive pain and suffering. The Chinese government spies on their people, they used that system to silence the story about this virus which is now infecting people around the globe.

Giving up your right to privacy, speech, and defense is [1]literally exactly how this happened in the first place.

If the truth had gotten out sooner, it could have been contained. Instead, the world economy is grinding to a halt and people are dying. All thanks to a government spying on its people's cell phone

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/feb/06/whistleblower-...

Re: Singapore to Open Source Bluetooth Contact Tracing

#122

Post by TeMPOraL » Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 11:43 PM UTC

Reelin wrote: post #119

GordonS wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The current pandemic is force majeure, the next one might be accidental, the one after that purposeful Being honest, I don't think there is any need for such alarmism. If anything, this pandemic has demonstrated that a viral bioweapen could ensure MAD just as well as the nuclear variety. > Advancement of science and technology in large parts means making more and more potentially destructive power available to indi…

> You are implying that individuals could release a bioweapon upon the world - sorry, but again I think this is pure alarmism, and absolutely not what we need right now. Honestly, it's not alarmist at this point and it's not just limited to bioweapons. A whole host of chemicals such as dimethylmercury exist and could potentially be weaponized. Science and technology advance relentlessly; at some point we will have to…

> A whole host of chemicals such as dimethylmercury exist and could potentially be weaponized.

For context, quoting from Wikipedia:

"The acute toxicity of the compound was demonstrated by the death of heavy metal chemist Karen Wetterhahn, who died 10 months after a single exposure of only a few drops permeated through her disposable latex gloves."

Which reminds me of another, bit more common, chemical: hydrofluoric acid. It's a nasty substance that - in low enough concentration - can penetrate your skin, killing cells on its way to the bones, and disrupt the work of internal organs, with symptoms only visible after hours have passed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrofluoric_acid_burn

Not to scare people too much, but the last 100 years have given us a tremendous amount of tools to do harm, a lot of which are available to smart and determined enough individuals. At this point it's evident that the reason humanity hasn't already self-destructed is that most people aren't crazy maniacs and don't want to kill (at least not at random). Bioweapons are particularly nasty here because they self-replicate. It's not like with nuclear weapons, where the limiting factor is that the infrastructure necessary to weaponize fission material is affordable only for state-level actors. For bioweapons, all you need is base pathogen, some (arguably expensive) lab equipment, and a smart enough crazy.

Re: Singapore to Open Source Bluetooth Contact Tracing

#123

Post by buzzkillington » Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 11:45 PM UTC

throwanem wrote: post #38

Proziam wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would you suggest that we not have public health departments engage in contact tracing at all to combat the pandemic? If so, I'm not sure what to tell you. If the result is (another) permanent loss of privacy and freedom akin to the PATRIOT act, then yes. Technology has immense power to do good for people, but only if those who deploy it do so ethically. How many governments around the world can we honestly predict…

I'm curious how many people who now say "give me privacy or give me death!" will change their tune in a hurry once they are themselves, perhaps for the first time in their lives, in real danger of dying. I regret that - assuming my own ongoing case of COVID-19 resolves without fatal complication - I'm quite likely, I think, to have that curiosity satisfied. I regret it because this isn't a cause for change of perspec…

>I'm curious how many people who now say "give me privacy or give me death!" will change their tune in a hurry once they are themselves, perhaps for the first time in their lives, in real danger of dying.

Already had the virus, it was a bad cold.

Liberty or death.

Re: Singapore to Open Source Bluetooth Contact Tracing

#124

Post by mellow2020 » Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 11:47 PM UTC

eecc wrote: post #75

Barrin92 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But "stay at home" has been a mantra for weeks anyway, with everybody acting as if they and everyone else is infected.[..] But we are at this point already. Singapore isn't. (the government that is building this app). Neither is Taiwan. Through a combination of contact tracing, surveillance, national health databases and enforcing compliance of quarantined individuals by for example regularly checking in on them the…

I find it pathetic that people wail to the high heavens about this abstract concept of privacy you mention and pensively quote Benjamin Franklin, while clicking away all their most intimate shit to check out some stupid Facebook game. Get your priorities right: “you won’t believe...” clickbait no. Contact tracing to stop a disease that turns your lungs to frothy blood-juice. Fuck yes

> while clicking away all their most intimate shit to check out some stupid Facebook game.

That doesn't describe me, that describes the straw man your require to be at ease with your own choices, which in turn is the only signal in your comment.

Re: Singapore to Open Source Bluetooth Contact Tracing

#125

Post by vkou » Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 11:50 PM UTC

mellow2020 wrote: post #48

closeparen wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of contact tracing is to find out who to quarantine, so you don’t have to lock down the entire population. It’s not a “copout,” it’s the bread and butter of epidemic mitigation. It’s why most of them don’t get to this point.

> The point of contact tracing is to find out who to quarantine, so you don’t have to lock down the entire population. But "stay at home" has been a mantra for weeks anyway, with everybody acting as if they and everyone else is infected. > It’s why most of them don’t get to this point. But we are at this point already.

Stay at home is the mantra, but because there is zero enforcement of it, there's no shortage of stupid people coughing in grocery stores, or visiting out-of-state relatives, or fleeing the epidemic centers, bringing the virus into rural communities.

Lockdown buys time to introduce new measures. Those measures are:

1. Quarantining positive individuals.

2. Physically enforcing that quarantine. The honor system doesn't work. People are very clearly not obeying voluntary quarantine.

3. Contact tracing, and testing of everyone that positive individuals have interacted with.

Once we get a system that can handle 1, 2, and 3 in place, we can lift the lockdown. This is how Korea and Singapore are beating the virus. This is how China's going to be lifting their lockdown.

Re: Singapore to Open Source Bluetooth Contact Tracing

#126

Post by buzzkillington » Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 11:50 PM UTC

throwanem wrote: post #94

seph-reed wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm curious how many people who now say "give me privacy or give me death!" will change their tune in a hurry once they are themselves, perhaps for the first time in their lives, in real danger of dying. The weak ones we shouldn't be prioritizing over the strong. Harboring weakness is just asking to be taken advantage of. It may seem empathetic at first, but all you end up doing is undermining the individuals growt…

It's a mercy you won't be held to this when you get sick, and find it's somewhat easier to talk in the abstract about coming to terms with death than to face the imminent possibility. edit: Well, you won't be held to it assuming we haven't reached a need for sufficiently severe triage, I suppose. Otherwise, you might get a chance to quite literally put your life on the line for the principle you've just espoused! I w…

>It's a mercy you won't be held to this when you get sick, and find it's somewhat easier to talk in the abstract about coming to terms with death than to face the imminent possibility.

It's unfortunate that you're a coward.

Death is not something to fear, and with a stock of strong pain killers neither is dying.

Re: Singapore to Open Source Bluetooth Contact Tracing

#127

Post by teddyh » Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 11:53 PM UTC

throwanem wrote: post #38

Proziam wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would you suggest that we not have public health departments engage in contact tracing at all to combat the pandemic? If so, I'm not sure what to tell you. If the result is (another) permanent loss of privacy and freedom akin to the PATRIOT act, then yes. Technology has immense power to do good for people, but only if those who deploy it do so ethically. How many governments around the world can we honestly predict…

I'm curious how many people who now say "give me privacy or give me death!" will change their tune in a hurry once they are themselves, perhaps for the first time in their lives, in real danger of dying. I regret that - assuming my own ongoing case of COVID-19 resolves without fatal complication - I'm quite likely, I think, to have that curiosity satisfied. I regret it because this isn't a cause for change of perspec…

This is like saying “There are no atheists in foxholes.” People who say it might believe it, but it is demonstrably false.

Re: Singapore to Open Source Bluetooth Contact Tracing

#128

Post by throwanem » Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 12:04 AM UTC

buzzkillington wrote: post #126

throwanem wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a mercy you won't be held to this when you get sick, and find it's somewhat easier to talk in the abstract about coming to terms with death than to face the imminent possibility. edit: Well, you won't be held to it assuming we haven't reached a need for sufficiently severe triage, I suppose. Otherwise, you might get a chance to quite literally put your life on the line for the principle you've just espoused! I w…

>It's a mercy you won't be held to this when you get sick, and find it's somewhat easier to talk in the abstract about coming to terms with death than to face the imminent possibility. It's unfortunate that you're a coward. Death is not something to fear, and with a stock of strong pain killers neither is dying.

Sure, assuming you have the good fortune to choose your manner of dying. I wouldn't feel very comfortable making that kind of assumption. But I concede it's easier to sling accusations of cowardice than to think seriously about drowning slowly and helplessly in the fluids of your own destroyed lungs.

Congratulations on having gotten over this pandemic virus. Good luck with the next one!

Re: Singapore to Open Source Bluetooth Contact Tracing

#129

Post by bosie » Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 12:04 AM UTC

groby_b wrote: post #109

bosie wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess i misunderstood surpression. Thought surpression is the early stages and not when you have been thouroughly infected already. "meaningful supply" was in the context of avoiding a lockdown and hence i don't undrestand your answer. if you don't have the equipment now, how do you avoid the lockdown and make the levels go down without large quantities of dead people?

I'm not an epidemiologist, or an MD, so with a large grain of salt: Containment: Testing & contact tracing - you try to contain the disease before it widely spreads. Usually one of the early stages of fighting. Mitigation: You can't contain any more, and you're trying to slow down the progress to avoid a large peak. Test & treat those with severe symptoms, encourage people with mild symptoms to stay home, encourage p…

Great, thank you very much for the thourough reply and link.

Re: Singapore to Open Source Bluetooth Contact Tracing

#130

Post by buzzkillington » Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 12:07 AM UTC

throwanem wrote: post #128

buzzkillington wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's a mercy you won't be held to this when you get sick, and find it's somewhat easier to talk in the abstract about coming to terms with death than to face the imminent possibility. It's unfortunate that you're a coward. Death is not something to fear, and with a stock of strong pain killers neither is dying.

Sure, assuming you have the good fortune to choose your manner of dying. I wouldn't feel very comfortable making that kind of assumption. But I concede it's easier to sling accusations of cowardice than to think seriously about drowning slowly and helplessly in the fluids of your own destroyed lungs. Congratulations on having gotten over this pandemic virus. Good luck with the next one!

In any sane world euthanasia would be legal and everyone could chose a painless death.

But of course we can't have that freedom.