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$5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

caloes.ca.gov

121–130 of 450 posts

Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#121

I think that setting a price on something is best considered as a form of speech, even if it isn't exactly the same thing. A price is a statement of the value you believe that a thing has. As a free speech advocate I believe people should be able to express such value judgments freely with few constraints. A price signal is similar to other signals we can make with speech, in that it has the potential to change behav…

Price gouging is the free speech equivalent of yelling fire in a full movie theater. You are harming people for your own enjoyment.

Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#122
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"A nearby liquidation firm was selling 2,000 “pandemic packs,” leftovers from a defunct company. Each came with 50 face masks, four small bottles of hand sanitizer and a thermometer. The price was $5 a pack. Mr. Colvin haggled it to $3.50 and bought them all." "He quickly sold all 2,000 of the 50-packs of masks on eBay, pricing them from $40 to $50 each, and sometimes higher. He declined to disclose his profit on the…

Have you subtracted all the losses on the products that didn't sell? When I sold on Amazon, every so often I'd be able to 10X my money on a product, but it was rare and balanced out by the many more times that I would lose money on a product or have to write off completely because it didn't sell.

So, from a "does the market optimize for good outcomes" perspective, that seems even worse - goods (that are already produced) get hoarded and sometimes they don't even sell. This seems like it's not accomplishing the goals very well.

Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#123

A lot of people in this thread are willfully ignoring some basic facts here. These products are being made in sufficient quantity for everyone. There is not a significant decrease in production. There is a significant increase in hoarding, and in many cases it is for the explicit purpose of creating artificial scarcity to increase the price of a product. This is not a case of toilet paper suddenly costing more to pro…

The price of an item is a very blunt instrument. It doesn't distinguish between producers and scalpers/hoarders.

Both of those parties are equally incentivized to produce stock and sell it if the price goes up. From the point of view of a potential buyer, toilet paper straight from the factory, and toilet paper from the guy next door who bought some ahead of time are equally good.

> This is a case of consumers attempting to create small niches of artificial scarcity so that they can profit.

To a very good approximation, the marginal impact of any hoarders on the scarcity of a product is zero. Hoarders are not trying to drive scarcity themselves, they are trying to buy a product now because they think the price will rise, but they're not trying to make the price rise by buying it. The distinction is important!

> The price gouging law is not bringing toilet paper to levels where the producer of the product is taking some kind of operating loss or even reduction in profit of any kind.

This completely ignores the fact that the cost to produce a product is not a fixed amount, but rather that higher prices induce producers to make more product sooner.

Here's the crux of the issue: when supply is judged to be sufficient, nobody will hoard. When the supply of an item in the short term is in doubt, one of three things happen:

0) The price does not change, but the item goes out of stock. Some proportion of people are unable to procure the item, independently of their need for it.

1) Hoarders step in and cause the price of an item to rise. The higher price means that those who demonstrate a higher desire for an item (by their willingness to pay) end up getting it. The hoarding profits are a charge to the rest of society for a more efficient distribution of the item compared to 0.

What bothers people here primarily is that hoarders made money while everyone else is suffering.

2) The government steps in and does the distribution directly, e.g. via rationing. Here, the government decides who needs the item the most.

Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#124

A lot of people in this thread are willfully ignoring some basic facts here. These products are being made in sufficient quantity for everyone. There is not a significant decrease in production. There is a significant increase in hoarding, and in many cases it is for the explicit purpose of creating artificial scarcity to increase the price of a product. This is not a case of toilet paper suddenly costing more to pro…

> There is not a significant decrease in production.

And if there are, it's too soon to feel the impacts.

And who knows how long it takes for TP to switch from commercial/industrial sales to residential sales. People are spending far more time at home instead of work/school/malls/restaurants/vacations.

But if Chinese pollution studies are to be believed, we could be feeling a lot of shortages over the coming months.

I'm not worried TP, but I am about pharma APIs.

Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#125

A lot of people in this thread are willfully ignoring some basic facts here. These products are being made in sufficient quantity for everyone. There is not a significant decrease in production. There is a significant increase in hoarding, and in many cases it is for the explicit purpose of creating artificial scarcity to increase the price of a product. This is not a case of toilet paper suddenly costing more to pro…

>We would be doing our entire society a severe disservice if our solution to this problem is simply "create so much toilet paper that people can't hoard it." The fuck are we going to do with that much toilet paper.

If people want that much toilet paper, the only solution that's going to satisfy them is producing all the toilet paper they want. Society is just an aggregate of people, and if enough of them want for whatever reason a shit-tonne of toilet paper, it would be doing them a disservice to stop the market from giving them what they want.

Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#126
post #73

Price isn't just the cost of buying something, it's the reward for producing it. If we see too many price gouging laws, then you can expect shortages as companies find themselves unable to justify extreme measures that would otherwise increase production (at great expense). Secondly, I would expect that localities with price gouging laws will discover that their goods are being re-routed to other places without those…

Here is a link to the relevant section of the California penal code: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio... "While the pricing of consumer goods and services is generally best left to the marketplace under ordinary conditions, when a declared state of emergency or local emergency results in abnormal disruptions of the market, the public interest requires that excessive and unjustified increas…

Excessive and unjustified seem quite subjective.

Not subjective is exporting to Japan.

Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#129

A lot of people in this thread are willfully ignoring some basic facts here. These products are being made in sufficient quantity for everyone. There is not a significant decrease in production. There is a significant increase in hoarding, and in many cases it is for the explicit purpose of creating artificial scarcity to increase the price of a product. This is not a case of toilet paper suddenly costing more to pro…

>We would be doing our entire society a severe disservice if our solution to this problem is simply "create so much toilet paper that people can't hoard it."

If the people want to hoard toilet paper, who are we to deny them?

Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#130
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> clean water Your clean water generally comes from your government-run water supply, not from a private company. Many of the important discoveries in water purification were made by people who didn't stand to profit from it personally, including English doctor John Snow, German scientist Moritz Traube (who funded himself as a wine reseller), US government contractor George W. Fuller, British officer Vincent Nesfield…

You are on another planet. The USSR collapsed, east Germany collapsed, Cuba is a joke, China is capitalist, you are living in fairy land. The government may support a lot of research but the government’s tax base derives from entrepreneurs who create a healthy free market. No socialist utopia exists and you live in a good society because of economic freedom. None of this is news to most people, and me telling you thi…

> The government may support a lot of research but the government’s tax base derives from entrepreneurs who create a healthy free market.

Wouldn't the free market be healthier if the government stopped taxing those entrepreneurs so much?

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