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The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

jarednelsen.dev

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Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#121
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you sort an infinite stream?

the post was getting too long to put in all the details, but basically, what I was getting at, imagine the data comes in batches and you have to retain the N largest seen so far

IMO, that's not an appropriate question for a data scientist. Maybe it's better for a data engineer or a SRE.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also other trends that, thankfully in my experience, have not yet made their way to tech. I suspect it is only a matter of time, though... A lot of non-technical positions I have seen and heard about (including non entry-level positions) require a video of the candidate to describe themselves and why they would be a good fit for the position. That just sounds awful to me.

Is it that different from a cover letter ?

For some people maybe not. A video would be far more stressful for me. I'm sure my voice would be up an octave (along with my blood pressure) trying to get the recording just right. Speaking aloud is also not my forte.

One benefit of a cover letter is it is easier to re-use the base story and update the details as appropriate. Unless you want to spend time editing (which depending on your skill impacts the quality) you have to re-record the whole thing.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#123

Interviews are so bad because there are too many capable programmers. If there really was a market shortage, companies would not interview like this.

If the problem was oversupply, we wouldn't be getting the cushy salaries and benefits we do. I think the issue is more that it's pretty easy for people with no programming ability to appear competent on a resume, especially to a clueless HR rep or headhunter. There are a lot of people out there whose backgrounds look good on paper who can't solve FizzBuzz...

Hypothesis:

There's such a flood of qualified labor that employers can afford to arbitrarily shrink the pool of applicants without significantly worsening their outcomes. Their behavior indicates that just the top N% of the market is enough to fill the needs of all selective companies. "Top" can be a semi-random filter, since the pool of basically competent people is much deeper than N.

(There's also a much larger flood of people who aren't qualified, which definitely complicates the process.)

All else equal, if employers simply stopped rejecting qualified applicants for arbitrary reasons, they could solve the "shortage" overnight and pay much lower wages that developers would still accept. But all else isn't equal. Their past decisions shaped the playing field, so now external-but-related factors like the housing market and competitors' responses limit their options in practice. They can't just take a bunch of people and drop wages, even though they "could", without disrupting other things that aren't worth disrupting.

Edit: Too late to delete, but this is not a good analysis. Companies are clearly feeling some pressure to do something, but there are too many unknowns in this to draw the conclusion, and a ton of factors I've ignored.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#124

When my classmates were preparing interview coding questions, I was working on a mini TCP implementation and a toy kernel. AWS rejected me since I failed to write prefect code to traverse a tree in level order. Google did not even give me an interview since I told the campus recruiter I have not prepared for the coding questions. Then I ended up with an internship at CoreOS and created etcd. I am glad that they did n…

Wow. I don't have as prolific a tale as that, but I'm in the looking stage right now and the idea of cramming for a test I haven't taken in 12 years annoys the hell out of me.

I've done some pretty interesting things in biotech in my career, things that required learning about motion control, digital imaging, signal processing, and biology... but if I want a job as a web dev I apparently need to memorize how to implement every sorting algorithm... on a whiteboard... in ten minutes. The fact that I know which to use when is irrelevant. Bleh.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#125

When my classmates were preparing interview coding questions, I was working on a mini TCP implementation and a toy kernel. AWS rejected me since I failed to write prefect code to traverse a tree in level order. Google did not even give me an interview since I told the campus recruiter I have not prepared for the coding questions. Then I ended up with an internship at CoreOS and created etcd. I am glad that they did n…

If learning is the naive approach to getting good grades then programming fun projects is the naive approach to passing technical interviews.

"If tests truly were tests of learning, things wouldn't be so bad. Getting good grades and learning would converge, just a little late. The problem is that nearly all tests given to students are terribly hackable. Most people who've gotten good grades know this, and know it so well they've ceased even to question it. You'll see when you realize how naive it sounds to act otherwise."

http://paulgraham.com/lesson.html

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#126

Comedian Daniel Tosh had a bit about people that claimed to be smart, it's just that they were just bad at taking tests. He said, "oh, so you struggle with the part where we find out what you actually know?" I hear a lot of complaints about the "typical" software engineering hiring process, and it usually comes from the people that don't do well within the current system. Could the process be improved? Almost certain…

People are completing 500+ problems on leetcode before heading into interviews at google. Don't believe me? Go read the teamblind forums. People might spend six months studying, after which they pass a bunch of interviews and get good comp. Getting just one offer from a FAANG company often doesnt pay well enough, you need multiple competing ones. If you think this has anything to do with incompetent people complainin…

Ugh. I looked at teamblind for about 10 minutes a few years ago and wrote it off as a cesspool of status seekers in the 18-21 age group.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#127

In addition to all of the very dystopian examples given in this post, there are other non-technical, super-dystopian things that have been popping up as "trends" in the tech industry. Ever heard of top-grading? It's the most oppressive interview technique of all time. A series of grueling multi-person interviews. A retrospective of all work experiences since high school . You also have to get multiple prior employers…

So many people suggest me to lie. So many do. When you don't (anxious, imposter, doubtful or else), recruiter hasn't shiny eyes so you fail. It's a recipee for fake.

They lie to you. Why should you feel bad about lying to them?

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also other trends that, thankfully in my experience, have not yet made their way to tech. I suspect it is only a matter of time, though... A lot of non-technical positions I have seen and heard about (including non entry-level positions) require a video of the candidate to describe themselves and why they would be a good fit for the position. That just sounds awful to me.

Is it that different from a cover letter ?

well adding the visual element just introduces another source of bias.. and even if we set that aside, depending on the position it may be selecting for an irrelevant skill

cover letters are terrible anyway. the signal to noise ratio there must be comical.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#129

In addition to all of the very dystopian examples given in this post, there are other non-technical, super-dystopian things that have been popping up as "trends" in the tech industry. Ever heard of top-grading? It's the most oppressive interview technique of all time. A series of grueling multi-person interviews. A retrospective of all work experiences since high school . You also have to get multiple prior employers…

A few words on top grading. We are use a top grading like process, and are pretty flexible on the references part of it. It is just a long conversation. I think it is a structured and simple way to talk about a person and where they have been. Yes, it is comprehensive, but it works well. We hire almost all candidates that have made it to the top grading stage of our hiring process. We don’t use it to find liars and d…

To someone wanting to learn what this method means (the good parts), what resources would you recommend?
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