Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums • Hacker News Board

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#121

Post by dadarepublic » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 3:28 PM UTC

This is great news!

With the current direction of US politics, as a US citizen, I find myself increasingly entertaining the thought of becoming an ex-pat.

Top countries I've thought about have been the Nordic countries - Finland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Greenland, Iceland and have considered the Netherlands as well.

They seem to have reasonable blended economies with social policies that make (more) sense.

No country/systems is perfect and I'm always willing to try something new for a time.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#122

Post by rglullis » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 3:28 PM UTC

wincy wrote: post #40

sudoaza wrote: post #2

Germany has this and is awesome. 14 months paid leave to distribute among the two parents.

I’m curious what what happen if someone wanted to have ten kids and abused this system, and the mother didn’t work. At a gut I feel like I’d be less likely to have kids, not more, if I felt like I was burdening other people by accepting benefits like this. I have no worries as an American having as many kids as I want because I make a good salary, can afford them, and won’t take more than a weeks, maybe two weeks tim…

It is amazing how Europeans like to make fun of Americans for their supposed ignorance of political matters, yet they manage to boast this kind of non-sense that GP wrote. Elternzeit can be for up to 14 months, but it comes with lots of restrictions: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22247242 It is not some kind of "cash-for-kids" system that turns wombs into goldmines. Even Kindergeld (~220EUR/month for every child until they are 18) is not really profitable.

As to your gut feel: once you get used to the idea that the Welfare State is something that you can not opt out of and how strong it is at leveling out society, I am sure you wont feel like you are "burdening other people". After I moved here and started leaving 43% of my paycheck to the government, 14% to income-based (not actuarial risk based) health insurance and paying 19% for VAT and seeing how little I was keeping of that "good software engineer income", I started worrying less about my burden and more about how I could get some of my fair share back.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#123

Post by toomuchtodo » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 3:28 PM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #96

toomuchtodo wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking only for my personal situation, my partner is a stay at home parent. They have no career, do not want a career, and only want to be a full time parent (which I fully support). I use my resources to enable that, and make their life as easy as possible (hired help around the house, childcare, etc).

You can still enable them in ways that don't involve working at a formal job. Doing chores, dealing with household issues, that kind of thing. Having a kid generally means that there's a lot of stressful work to do around the house, and you would be in the right position to deal with that.

All of that has been hired out, because my job enables me to. I do work I enjoy so I don’t have to do work I don’t enjoy.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#124

Post by fatbird » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 3:29 PM UTC

kraigie wrote: post #92

brazilianabroad wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not a freak, don't care for the infant stage. Oh that's much better. As we all know, infants don't need their parents for adequate cognitive development. /s

You put the /s their. But they don't. That's why orphanages can raise children.

There's a difference between the minimal standard of raising a child to functioning adulthood, which is what orphanages generally manage, and raising a well-adjusted, emotionally healthy person who's not held back, having been given only the bare minimum of rearing.

All the research points to active parenting/interaction with children from day 1 being extremely beneficial.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#125

Post by toasterlovin » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 3:29 PM UTC

kraigie wrote: post #75

toasterlovin wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Finally, a country that understands that one of the driving forces of gender inequality is the asymmetry of experience caused by maternal leave. The asymmetry of experience is actually caused by child bearing, which can only be done by women. Maternal leave is downstream from that.

Paternity leave is a lot easier to implement than artificial wombs.

We could also stop pressuring women to conform to male standards of behavior and economic performance and instead celebrate the fact that they alone are able to perform the sacred work of growing and nurturing new human life. Then the “problem” that policies like this are trying to fix simply ceases to exist.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#126

Post by ryanmercer » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 3:29 PM UTC

I know I'm going to be downvoted and already regret deciding to share this but...

I've never understood parental leave. If I want to go on a vacation, I have to plan for that and save time to use for it. If you want to have a child, you should have to plan to save your time to take and spend with the child or be in a financial place where one parent can quit their job to stay with the child. It's not like you go to sleep one night and wake up to find a baby next to you that was delivered by a stork. My fiance and I plan to try to have a child once we're married in May but it's something we will save our time off for during the early days of its life because we are choosing to try and have a child.

If a company wants to offer this as a benefit, that's awesome, but I don't understand why governments need to create law to make it a mandatory thing. Having a child is a choice.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#127

Post by speg » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 3:30 PM UTC

Waterluvian wrote: post #48

Wow impressive. In Canada as a Dad I can get, I think, 6 months of paid leave. Although the pay is covered by Employment Insurance and it only covers so much (like 55% of your salary up to $600/wk) I ended up just taking four weeks vacation for my first kid and it made all the difference. I strongly believe that giving flexible and generous vacation time to all parents/guardians will have a positive impact on society…

Eh? It's either 12/18 months of EI (split however) + 5/8 weeks reserved for the non primary caregiver.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#128

Post by sandos » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 3:30 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #74

socialdemocrat wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is just that the days get wasted if you don't take them. So you would be stupid not to do it. > Not a freak, don't care for the infant stage. Happy to dote when they start to turn into people. That is kind of a selfish attitude. The early stage is a lot of work, but why should you skip the work while your wife has to do it all? I remember back in that time. I was quite happy to go back to work the first weeks, bec…

Speaking only for my personal situation, my partner is a stay at home parent. They have no career, do not want a career, and only want to be a full time parent (which I fully support). I use my resources to enable that, and make their life as easy as possible (hired help around the house, childcare, etc).

But kids dont really require one parent for the rest of that parents' life? So they then resume a non-existing career, or do they just stay home when the kids are in school etc? Living in Sweden this has always seemed a bit weird to me, since "stay at home parent" basically doesnt exist here, unless you are (involuntarily) unemployed.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#129

Post by gfs78 » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 3:30 PM UTC

rglullis wrote: post #50

epaga wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's months. Amazing for employees and terrifying for employers. Someone I know took a new job somewhere, only to let them know a week or so after being there that his wife was about to have their child and he was going to be gone for the next 14 months. They were not going to be able to fire him without repercussions. He was not required to let them know during the interview.

The company is not the one paying for that, so it is not as bad for the company as you are saying. Chill.

but they still need to get his job done

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#130

Post by kgwgk » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 3:31 PM UTC

gopalv wrote: post #64

toomuchtodo wrote: post #12

But will they force Dads to take it? As a Dad who had two kids, I would much rather pay for childcare than take paternity leave. Would someone like me be held back artificially to promote equality? EDIT: Not a freak, don't care for the infant stage. Happy to dote when they start to turn into people.

> But will they force Dads to take it? Nobody forces the moms either (though I do understand that dads don't breast-feed every 3 hours without sleep). The point is that this means the "she will be off for X months" becomes less of a biological parts thing against women and more of a life-stage thing. Though the ageism might still strike here, as people plan to have kids later in their lives. > Happy to dote when they…

> Nobody forces the moms either

In some European countries women are not allowed to work in the following 6 or 8 weeks after giving birth (maybe even longer somewhere?).