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Burnout: 'Sick and tired of feeling sick and tired'

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Re: Burnout: 'Sick and tired of feeling sick and tired'

#121

Post by SketchySeaBeast »

dnautics wrote: post #5
lvturner wrote: post #4

I think the scariest thing about burn-out, is that not everyone is financially able to take the recommended time off to recover - what then? I've certainly been close to being in this boat, had to take a job before I fully recovered, so took one I felt might be a bit lighter on the load and still give me some chance of recovery. Pleased to report it has been mostly successful.

what if the 'recommended time off to recover' is wrong? I believe that burnout comes from a missing a reward that is expected after protracted and intense labor, thereby training your brain that labor = bad. Maybe the right thing to do is to retrain your brain that labor = good, with primary stimuli. Making green dots appear is definitely one very effective way to get over burnout. I haven't had a major burnout incid…

> I believe that burnout comes from a missing a reward that is expected after protracted and intense labor, thereby training your brain that labor = bad.

I personally think the problem is we don't really see much of a reward. Weeks of living in flight or fight mode and then a "good job" from the boss isn't a reward. Knowledge workers don't get real tangible rewards. And even if I had $100,000 dropped in my lap today, that wouldn't even be tangible, it'd just disappear in to the mortgage. I'd never actually enjoy it, no part of my monkey brain would think it did a good job.

It's hard for our profession to provide obvious, immediate rewards.

Re: Burnout: 'Sick and tired of feeling sick and tired'

#122

Post by alicorn »

thrower123 wrote: post #76
throwlaplace wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

99% of the world has a job they can't afford to take leave from. and if you imagine that 99% of the world doesn't have a job that's taxing enough that they'd be burnt out then you don't understand menial labor and how utterly psychologically exhausting it is to do repetitive boring tasks. So what then? People suffer and struggle and try to improve the lives of their children and then they die. I say all this not beca…

Mindless repetitive tasks are just fine. You don't have to think about what you're doing, so you are free to let your mind wander to better places. I've done this sort of thing for years, I know what I'm talking about. Mental labor is crushing.

I did a summer working at a printing house where we assembled printed calendars by hand (post-soviet country, people were cheap, machines were horrendously expensive). The job consisted of walking around a long table in a circle and assembling all pages for a calendar, then putting it in a pile for further processing by someone else. 6am - 3pm all day every day. That job instilled a burning need to never, ever be at a place where something similar is what I need to do for a living, that I feel to this day. It was absolutely crushing.

Re: Burnout: 'Sick and tired of feeling sick and tired'

#123

Post by Falloodude »

Most instances of burnout in my life have come from non-work these days. The company I work for of course doesn't give a shit about this, despite it having a very real effect on my work output.

In 2019, one of my parents tried to meddle in my relationship with my wife, and then took the additional step of nearly ruining our wedding. The additional dozen or so hours per week needed to deal with this (which, by the way, sent me back to my therapist) was overwhelming once sustained for a few months. Oh, also, someone broke into my wife's house and stole a lot of valuable heirlooms, which also caused extra drama in the middle of these two things, which also cost me in lost time, lost sleep, and random interruptions at work.

My performance review for year 2019 was bad. My boss says it was because my Jira card count and code contributions were below X. I let him know of impending catastrophe as best I could the entire year, and adjusted expectations accordingly, but it's clear the org doesn't actually care — so why should he?

Re: Burnout: 'Sick and tired of feeling sick and tired'

#124

Post by P_I_Staker »

apacheCamel wrote: post #88
P_I_Staker wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget if you stop working for any reason, you're now a failure, met with suspicion, and expected to explain that for the rest of your life. It's not even about the financial aspect, our society is very punitive to people that want to leave their cages for a while. What you wanted more than this office for one year out of your 30+ year career? There must be something wrong with you.

I've had some really weird experiences with this. Directly after school, I took a year off basically "waiting" for my job to finally accept me (long story, they eventually did) and now, every single recruiter or company I talk to demands I explain why I took a year off. "I see you didn't immediately join the workforce, care to explain?" is what they hit me with every single time. It is unbelievable that I need to exp…

Yeah, it's super dumb, and makes me depressed about the world we live in.

Re: Burnout: 'Sick and tired of feeling sick and tired'

#125

Post by kuzimoto »

missosoup wrote: post #49
raegis wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some ways we're moving to something worse than slavery. At least with slaves they were seen as "assets" rather than "temporary rentals". They had to take care of them out of necessity, so their evil had that limit on it. Some of us prefer burnout at reasonable pay than being raped, beaten, and denied all freedoms.

> raped, beaten, and denied all freedoms. Towards the later stages of slavery, the first 2 were outright illegal, and the third is somewhere on par with wage slavery today. It sounds like a hot take on the surface, but modern wage slavery is objectively worse than late-stage actual slavery in some regards. We have not really progressed as society. The only thing that has really advanced is the availability of enterta…

The following is entirely my opinion, and not based on empirical evidence, with that said...

I think the issue is that a lot of people don't believe they have a choice. When you are getting hired, make a point that you are not willing to work more than 40 hours a week (unless as completely necessary such as an actual emergency which requires your intervention), but for the hours you do work, you will put in your best effort. You're signing a mutual contract, not indentured servitude, serfdom, being "sold", etc.

It would be plain foolish not to hire someone like that (if they did in fact put in their best work). For some reason everyone thinks they have to be a slave to their company, but any company that recognizes their employees wishes will be able to reduce turnover (which can be very expensive) and in-turn have a higher morale which can improve performance.

I also think that parents are not teaching their kids good skills. I don't recall my parents saying anything other than "work hard" and "do your homework". They didn't tell me how to navigate the real world after school, I figured it out on my own. I learned how to find a company that not only wants me to work for them, but that I'd like to work for them as well. What questions to ask in the interviews, what signs to look out for that raise red flags on how employees are treated, how to research companies to see what the employees say about it and what benefits they may provide.

As a result I probably don't make as much as I could be, or I'm not as far in my career as I could be. But that's okay, because I get to go home at night and not worry about work, and spend time with my family. I also have the option to move jobs at will at any time, for any reason. I was in a job once that wasn't the perfect fit, and found an even better job as a result of the experience I gained working there for a fairly short time.

I love my job now, and I don't know what I would do without it. I'm very lucky that someone has put in the thousands (or hundred thousands, millions, tens of millions?) of dollars to create a business that is able to take advantage of the skill I have without me owning my own business.

Lastly, people are easy to be bitter and resentful. I'd hate to look back and feel like I was taken advantage of for the majority of my life, or missed out on important life events for a job that didn't matter.

Re: Burnout: 'Sick and tired of feeling sick and tired'

#126

Post by downerending »

P_I_Staker wrote: post #67
lvturner wrote: post #4

I think the scariest thing about burn-out, is that not everyone is financially able to take the recommended time off to recover - what then? I've certainly been close to being in this boat, had to take a job before I fully recovered, so took one I felt might be a bit lighter on the load and still give me some chance of recovery. Pleased to report it has been mostly successful.

Don't forget if you stop working for any reason, you're now a failure, met with suspicion, and expected to explain that for the rest of your life. It's not even about the financial aspect, our society is very punitive to people that want to leave their cages for a while. What you wanted more than this office for one year out of your 30+ year career? There must be something wrong with you.

This happened to me. At the end of a long and stressful divorce, I realized that I needed to take some time off (or else). Took about six months and then discovered that it's very difficult to get rehired after such a gap. (Being "old" doesn't help either.)

You have to play the cards you're dealt, though, and if you really need a break, it's way better than the "or else".

Re: Burnout: 'Sick and tired of feeling sick and tired'

#127

Post by idclip »

barry-cotter wrote: post #29
idclip wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you would only take a look at europe ... oh the horrors you will see.

Be clearer. I worked a ton of crap jobs in Ireland and always got out at the end of my shift unless someone didn’t show up and I agreed to work longer because I wanted more money. I have a number of relatives in medicine and professional services and long, hard hours describes their jobs well but it’s not chew them up and spit them out; If you want the big bucks you work the long hours.

Its hard to be clear, without betraying too much. i only have me and my experience and how i see others, and what ive been told.

Maybe the downvotes are meritted, though i didnt mean the hard work, i did actually mean that myself and many i know feel its a grind, and not in a good way.

You somehow make it sound as if i have something against hard work, but its quiet the opposite. It may very well be that my job is a single case of good ol toxic work environment.

Re: Burnout: 'Sick and tired of feeling sick and tired'

#128

Post by turk73 »

overkalix wrote: post #48
epicgiga wrote: post #14

A lot of companies are actively factoring this into their HR model. Their model is to hire fresh people and burn them out. Increasingly this is the direction western corporations are moving. Their ideal model is: place performance quotas above long term sustainability, people then burn themselves out, you then fire them for performance reasons, and you have them on an aggressive noncompete and threaten them with it w…

Not the first time I quote The Jungle in HN but... "During the summer the packing houses were in full activity again, and Jurgis made more money. He did not make so much, however, as he had the previous summer, for the packers took on more hands. There were new men every week, it seemed--it was a regular system; and this number they would keep over to the next slack season, so that every one would have less than ever…

Pretty funny how NOTHING has changed except the dollar's devaluation. Yesterday's $.15/hr is today's $15/hr. Means nothing. Labor continues to be exploited.

Re: Burnout: 'Sick and tired of feeling sick and tired'

#129

Post by turk73 »

apacheCamel wrote: post #88
P_I_Staker wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget if you stop working for any reason, you're now a failure, met with suspicion, and expected to explain that for the rest of your life. It's not even about the financial aspect, our society is very punitive to people that want to leave their cages for a while. What you wanted more than this office for one year out of your 30+ year career? There must be something wrong with you.

I've had some really weird experiences with this. Directly after school, I took a year off basically "waiting" for my job to finally accept me (long story, they eventually did) and now, every single recruiter or company I talk to demands I explain why I took a year off. "I see you didn't immediately join the workforce, care to explain?" is what they hit me with every single time. It is unbelievable that I need to exp…

You must be young. After 20 years, I don't even put those early jobs on my resume. If I even add them at all, it's a one line, name of company + role and some rough dates. Nobody cares. I don't put education or graduation date on the resume anymore, either. Nobody cares. If they care they will ask me.

This kind of stuff only matters like 1-2 years after you graduate. After that, like GPA, nobody gives a shit.

Some of the shitty jobs I had that I quit and didn't go back to work right away, nobody cares about months long gaps. I even completely erased one job I had for 18 months that was just a total shit company and shitty people whom I wanted no further association with. Never been asked about it even once.

Re: Burnout: 'Sick and tired of feeling sick and tired'

#130

Post by dnautics »

eitland wrote: post #90
dnautics wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what if the 'recommended time off to recover' is wrong? I believe that burnout comes from a missing a reward that is expected after protracted and intense labor, thereby training your brain that labor = bad. Maybe the right thing to do is to retrain your brain that labor = good, with primary stimuli. Making green dots appear is definitely one very effective way to get over burnout. I haven't had a major burnout incid…

As someone who hit the brick wall pretty hard at the end of last millennium this is the best most relatable description I've seen. Does anyone know if there has been any research into this explanation and, if so any pointers to where I can read more?

Yeah. My contrarian opinion on burnout cones from about 10 years of observation as an academic track researcher in the physical sciences (typical 80+, occasional 100h+ workweeks in sometimes physically dangerous environments - carcinogens, implosion and explosion risks, one time a Dewar imploded in my face at 2am). The two leading triggers for burnout were "literally the universe" causing your experiment to repeatedly fail, and possibly more pernicious, "your boss switches tracks on you", due to funding or political concerns. Of course the management class (PIs) has zero empathy because the funnel is so selective that almost all of them had it easy, and anything less is merely a dumb or incompetent employee.

One of my buddies went into a burnout phase where he would use his pipette tips in a geometrical pattern and play flash Gameboy Tetris, or sometimes go to the casino and play poker (all of which he got really good at).

By contrast, programming is a cakewalk.

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