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Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline

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Re: Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline

#121

Post by arethuza »

commandlinefan wrote: post #111
arethuza wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think Finland depends on the US - they aren't in NATO?

Well, that’s OP’s premise (which I do agree with). He says the U.S. spends 700 billion/year on defense, but needs less and that the rest is spent protecting other countries. There are 195 countries, so if that’s distributed evenly, we’re contributing about 3.5 billion/country/year, that they would each have to come up with if we stopped. Now, maybe it’s not evenly distributed like that - maybe Finland doesn’t rely on…

One interesting fact about Finland that I learned from "The Doomsday Machine: Confessions of a Nuclear War Planner" by Daniel Ellsberg is that in the event of a "general war" the US attack on the Soviet Union was expected to completely destroy Finland and kill at least 100 million in Western Europe.

Re: Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline

#122

Post by tappio »

aglavine wrote: post #94
commandlinefan wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming, of course, that if Finland had to provide for its own defense (rather than relying on us), they would still have money left over for social programs.

1. USA cuts military budget 2. Russia invades Finland. USA does nothing. 3. Homelessness in Finland peaks

Why would USA defend Finland as Finland is not part of NATO? The same way they defended Ukraine as Russia occupied Crimea and invaded East Ukraine?

Re: Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline

#123

Post by mattkrause »

34679 wrote: post #75
at-fates-hands wrote: post #28

For some perspective: Finalnd's military budget: 300 million US military budget: 700 BILLION The US could dump a lot of money into these social services to address people who are homeless, drug addicts, and other people on the fringes of society. We are however, constantly put in a place where other nations depend on us for their security. As such, they don't have to have a massive defensive budget when they can rely…

Oregon's budget for retired state employees: $100 Billion I tried to find the same for California, but it seems they do a better job of hiding it. My point is that we are spending a tremendous amount of money on former government employees, so they can have nice homes, good healthcare, and a quality education for their children. But in the process, we're neglecting a large portion of the population that those people…

What would you do instead?

It takes good, motivated staff to run an effective government department. Those same people have a lot of options, so the government has to compete for them somehow.

We’re unwilling to pay them high salaries (take a look at the federal pay scales: GS-12, which is usually a scientist with a grad degree, starts at $66k). Benefits seem a little more politically palatable, so the government competes on those instead: we won’t pay you a lot, but you can earn a (slightly) better retirement instead.

Without either, who’s going to work for the government? Do you really want a government full of people who can’t land any other job?

Re: Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline

#124

Post by pjc50 »

34679 wrote: post #75
at-fates-hands wrote: post #28

For some perspective: Finalnd's military budget: 300 million US military budget: 700 BILLION The US could dump a lot of money into these social services to address people who are homeless, drug addicts, and other people on the fringes of society. We are however, constantly put in a place where other nations depend on us for their security. As such, they don't have to have a massive defensive budget when they can rely…

Oregon's budget for retired state employees: $100 Billion I tried to find the same for California, but it seems they do a better job of hiding it. My point is that we are spending a tremendous amount of money on former government employees, so they can have nice homes, good healthcare, and a quality education for their children. But in the process, we're neglecting a large portion of the population that those people…

That's obviously not the correct number; perhaps that's the total liability for all future pensions?

It's not clear what the actual pensions number is, but the total budget for absolutely everything for the two years 2019-21 for Oregon appears to be $82bn from Schedule VI of https://www.oregon.gov/das/Financial/Documents/2019-21_gb.pd...

Re: Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline

#125

Post by at-fates-hands »

tlaturi wrote: post #90
at-fates-hands wrote: post #28

For some perspective: Finalnd's military budget: 300 million US military budget: 700 BILLION The US could dump a lot of money into these social services to address people who are homeless, drug addicts, and other people on the fringes of society. We are however, constantly put in a place where other nations depend on us for their security. As such, they don't have to have a massive defensive budget when they can rely…

That is not correct. The Finnish military budget is 3.2 billion Euros ($3.6B). On top of that, Finland has a universal male conscription, costs of which are not included. (I.e. the opportunity cost of being in the army) Source: https://www.defmin.fi/files/4804/Puolustusministerion_hallin...

My bad, I was actually reading the chart wrong:

https://tradingeconomics.com/finland/military-expenditure

Military Expenditure in Finland increased to 3615 USD Million in 2018 from 3430 USD Million in 2017.

Which you're correct, it's actually 3.6 Billion. US military spending still dwarfs Finland's, but not nearly as paltry as I had originally stated.

Re: Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline

#126

Post by DataWorker »

pjc50 wrote: post #47
gamblor956 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They never had Reagan, so they still treat mental illness there. More importantly, Finland allows for the involuntary commitment if the mentally ill. In the US, this is only allowed if the individual presents a danger to themselves or others.

That's almost what the Finnish system requires: https://helda.helsinki.fi/bitstream/handle/10138/231986/comp... "The current Finnish Mental Health Act stipulates thefollowing criteria for compulsory admission: .a person should be found to have a psychotic illness,and .because of this psychosis, they are (.in need of psychiatric care as their condition would otherwise worsen [this is the main different criterion], or…

You can imagine how that’s an artifact of a more socialized health system. Perhaps unintentionally, it would function in many ways as a cost saving feature that would be very difficult to implement in the US system. Think about junkies. Can they be involuntarily committed because their condition would “otherwise worsen”? Imagine the legal implications in a system where hmo and insurers get to influence the decision about who is committed.

Re: Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline

#127

Post by SamReidHughes »

ahelwer wrote: post #113
Bostonian wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"People should work because they choose to, not at gunpoint." Ultimately taxes are collected at gunpoint too, and collecting more taxes to pay for free apartments for the homeless and other welfare spending means more coercion.

Here, let me help you: try to imagine a society in which you want to live, not a random bunch of ideas like "taxation is theft at gunpoint" without regard to where that would lead.

A more just society, where if you choose not to work, you don’t eat.

Re: Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline

#128

Post by 727262826hdhd »

at-fates-hands wrote: post #28

For some perspective: Finalnd's military budget: 300 million US military budget: 700 BILLION The US could dump a lot of money into these social services to address people who are homeless, drug addicts, and other people on the fringes of society. We are however, constantly put in a place where other nations depend on us for their security. As such, they don't have to have a massive defensive budget when they can rely…

The only perspective this gives is perspective into your personal worldview. Why wouldn't you use % of total spending or frame it relative to national gdp if you were trying to make a meaningful comparison between the two countries?

Re: Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline

#129

Post by SkyBelow »

_jal wrote: post #62
SkyBelow wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would the definition be based on possessing or owning? What if one does possess a place they choose not to use (run away teen)? What about being able to stay in a place but only for a short term? I know a guy who recently sold his old house and bought a new one, but because of some confusion, ended up not having a home for two weeks. It would seem odd to call him homeless.

If you're not involved in adversarial contract authoring, I don't get the appeal of the "what about this edge case" game. > Would the definition be based on possessing or owning? Given that nobody calls people renting apartments homeless, I think this self-answers. In any case, voluntarily being temporarily in a situation wherein one does not own property in not commonly confused with living on the street for reasons…

>If you're not involved in adversarial contract authoring, I don't get the appeal of the "what about this edge case" game.

My mind often goes to the boundary cases because that is where the real differences occur at.

For social issues in general, I've seen enough cases of people stretching definitions and using selective definitions that are enough against the norm that the end statement made is purposefully misleading. You might say it is adversarial advertisement authoring.

Re: Finland is the only EU country where homelessness is in decline

#130

Post by wolco »

throwlaplace wrote: post #106
wolco wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't look at items in isolation. Finland doesn't have an open immigration policy. In fact it's citizen oppose immigration because they wish to preserve what is Finish. Finland is not more progressive in this regard. Now we can start to understand how Finland could end homelessness. With a free immigration policy this would be more difficult both culturally and in terms of costs. How does Finland get it's wealth?…

>With a free immigration policy this would be more difficult both culturally and in terms of costs. i don't understand what this has to do with anything? is this unique to the immigration patterns in Finland (that immigrants end up homeless?) in america the homeless are primarily black and white people (not recent immigrants) https://endhomelessness.org/resource/racial-disparities-home... >How does Finland get it's w…

The homeless population in Finland is ethically and culturely similiar to the population which allows them to identify and provide support. The same conditions do not exist in the US.

This doesn't extend to others. Finland doesn't provide the same level of support to the poorest nations. The US does.

How progressive are we if we help ourselves / our families and people who are genetically like us but we don't provide the same support to other poorer nations.

When you look under the hood things are not as black and white. Finland is not as progressive they appear because of the headline.

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