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How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

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Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#121

Post by gohi77 »

thdrdt wrote: post #7

Most western people are very negative about countries like Iran, China and Russia because they are the 'bad guys'. Well this article again shows that there are few countries that will not gain power over dead people. It's sad but true. Now imagine you were living in Iran and came to know about the work of the CIA. Whould you think the USA is the greatest country in the world and democracy is the way to go? I think it…

This isn’t a perfect observation but 25% of Beverly Hills is Persian. Of course, these were a lot of wealthy families who left Iran in the 70s and then helped build one of the best cities in the United States. With a fairly high percentage of Orthodox people.

Is it the systems involved, the religions, the wealth applied to a free society or just luck that created these two outcomes?

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#122

Post by oefrha »

mad_tortoise wrote: post #76
nexuist wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that regard, the current offensive action may as well be viewed as a breath of fresh air. If blood must be shed to end tyranny, perhaps it is a worthwhile gamble. The Iranian people gain nothing from allowing the current regime to grow. A US-Iran war would almost certainly result in a democratic Iran, with a connected and educated populace capable of maintaining it. I think one of the main flaws in Iraq and Afghan…

How many innocent people must die for the USA to end 'tyranny' in the Middle East? In Iraq alone it's over a million, then we can look at Yemen, Syria, Libya, Palestine, Lebanon before we even begin with Iran. And what then? Iran isn't like any of those countries the US has already pillaged, it has a 500k member armed forces, all highly trained. State of the art military systems, they have direct backing from Russia…

Unfortunately, to a large group of people, a tyranny (or a non-tyranny for that matter) that doesn’t kowtow to the U.S. is a “tyranny”, whereas one that does is a friend, ally and “democracy”.

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#123

Post by GVIrish »

Youden wrote: post #114
Yizahi wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, right, thank you for opening our collective eyes. I didn't know that it is USA who invaded my country, annexed territories as big as whole Belgium and killed tens of thousands soldiers and civilians only in recent years. I was too negative to the poor innocent Russia while all the time I should have known that it was USA all along. The BIGGER problem indeed.

Whatever Russia has done, I don't see it as a threat to the security of the world as a whole. Russia lacks the ability to project force around the world (e.g. it lacks aircraft carriers and a modern air force) and the EU's military spending alone is ~4x Russia's _before_ the Ruble collapsed. The US however has an obscene amount of military power and has shown that it's happy to use it for a full-scale invasion of ano…

Russia's conventional forces are not on par with the United States and they can't project that power globally.

But Putin's Russia has shown willingness and ability to achieve their geopolitical goals using espionage, propaganda, and direct military aid to bad actors, particularly in the Middle East. Putin has assassinated people in multiple countries in Europe, and had a hand in disinformation/propaganda campaigns aimed at weakening NATO and weakening international rule of law. Putin is actively attempting to sow discord in Western governments for the benefit of his government.

The United States' military action has caused far more death and destruction to be sure. And with American politics getting more and more volatile, partisan, and irrational, it seems likely we'll see more unnecessary conflicts and foreign policy crises in the future. Not to mention all of the damage to the international order done by Trump.

But just because Russia is no longer a traditional military superpower, make no mistake, they are working actively to undermine Western hegemony using asymmetrical means.

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#124

Post by [deleted] »

Yizahi wrote: post #97
thdrdt wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain what you are trying to say? Do you think the base of my argument is false? If so it would be helpful to point out why you think it is.

Iran, China and Russia are bad guys. Iran, China and Russia are worse that USA or any other country by whatever metric you would pick. Land area annexed in square kilometers or thousands of humans killed - pick any. Over any single point in time or any time period.

[deleted]

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#125

Post by Const-me »

surewhynat wrote: post #102
viraptor wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apart from the stuff mentioned in the sibling comment, the numbers don't even pass a smell test. That's 89% turnout, with international observers being denied entry. Compared to presidential election 2010 where Crimea had only 63.1% voters that bothered to act.

Okay, it doesn't pass your smell test... If there was another referendum today, and the people were given an option today, what do you think they would vote for? You never hear from Crimeans complaining about the referendum result in any way. Those people dodged a huge bullet and they know that. Ukraine is a mess, and perhaps one day when the fighting in Ukraine ends, when the corruption ends, someone should ask thos…

> If there was another referendum today, and the people were given an option today, what do you think they would vote for?

Depends on how you define “the people”. Are you going to ask Russians who moved to Crimea after the annexation? Are you going to ask Ukrainians who were unhappy with the shenanigans, and fled their homeland?

> You never hear from Crimeans complaining about the referendum result in any way.

Lack of complains can’t be interpreted as a sign as support, because many people were imprisoned, tortured, and/or killed for such complains: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Ru...

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#126

Post by anticodon »

pjc50 wrote: post #74
nexuist wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that regard, the current offensive action may as well be viewed as a breath of fresh air. If blood must be shed to end tyranny, perhaps it is a worthwhile gamble. The Iranian people gain nothing from allowing the current regime to grow. A US-Iran war would almost certainly result in a democratic Iran, with a connected and educated populace capable of maintaining it. I think one of the main flaws in Iraq and Afghan…

> What I do know is that the Iraq war absolutely ended the suffering of people under Saddam Hussein's dictatorship, and the Afghanistan war somewhat ended the suffering of people under Taliban rule (the Taliban unfortunately still exists but is definitely not as strong as it used to be). What I don't know, and I don't think anyone can really know, is if the loss of those governments and introduction of our armed forc…

It never cease to amaze me how blind are people in so-called democracies.

People of Iraq were suffering exactly how under Saddam?

Now many of them are dead because of the war. Infrastructure destroyed. Many people are suffering from ecological disaster (depleted uranium and toxic waste where us bases were located).

And still there's no peace and no democracy. To everyone in the world outside the US is obvious that war was for the oil, not some mythical "democracy". And the life of people of Iraq had become much worse as the result.

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#127

Post by Niten »

sudoaza wrote: post #53
idoubtit wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And as soon as the cold war ended, in 1989, the USA invaded Panama to put their own man as president. In the process, the USA killed more than 3000 civilians. The man who ordered the invasion was George H W Bush, a former director of the CIA. And if you're looking for more recent cases, the USA supported the military coup in Egypt in 2013. The government even refused to call it a coup because of legal implications. T…

As recently as last year a USA backed coup removed the president elected by more than 50% in Bolivia because they nationalized gas and were exploiting lithium themselves.

No. Evo Morales is a would-be dictator who ignored term limits and rigged an election to stay in power. He was forced out of power because the Bolivian army refused to kill Bolivian people to suppress protests against him.

The facts to counter the propaganda:

- https://www.economist.com/leaders/2019/11/16/was-there-a-cou...

- https://www.oas.org/en/media_center/press_release.asp?sCodig...

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#128

Post by Niten »

jessaustin wrote: post #94
asplake wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... and we’re dependent instead on rare earth elements and the like

The people of Bolivia have recently learned this to their great misfortune. The USA government hasn't even been shy about its support for that coup against a democratically elected leader who lifted so many out of poverty. The regime who took over celebrated the fact that they are white Christians and not brown natives.

"Democratically elected" is a really odd way to say "defied a referendum on term limits and rigged an election".

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#129

Post by perennate »

sudoaza wrote: post #53
idoubtit wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And as soon as the cold war ended, in 1989, the USA invaded Panama to put their own man as president. In the process, the USA killed more than 3000 civilians. The man who ordered the invasion was George H W Bush, a former director of the CIA. And if you're looking for more recent cases, the USA supported the military coup in Egypt in 2013. The government even refused to call it a coup because of legal implications. T…

As recently as last year a USA backed coup removed the president elected by more than 50% in Bolivia because they nationalized gas and were exploiting lithium themselves.

The USA issued statements supporting the ousting of Morales. That was the extent of USA's involvement. That does not really make it a "USA backed coup". Unless you believe it just because that's what Morales claimed.

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#130

Post by perennate »

jessaustin wrote: post #94
asplake wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... and we’re dependent instead on rare earth elements and the like

The people of Bolivia have recently learned this to their great misfortune. The USA government hasn't even been shy about its support for that coup against a democratically elected leader who lifted so many out of poverty. The regime who took over celebrated the fact that they are white Christians and not brown natives.

The USA issued statements supporting the ousting of Morales. That was the extent of USA's involvement. That does not really make it a "USA backed coup". Unless you believe it just because that's what Morales claimed.
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