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Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

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Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#121

Post by bilbo0s »

pc86 wrote: post #109
celticmusic wrote: post #31

Then the law needs to change. It's unconscionable for this to be happening. You make the buyers of that cobalt start caring, you'll make the producers of that cobalt start caring.

Then make that argument and lobby the legislature. But you don't change law by bringing irrelevant lawsuits, that's not how it works.

I don't think they intend to change the law. I think these people are out to change the behavior, regardless of what the law is now or in the future.

Everyone is playing dirty. And I'm pretty sure they're going to play even dirtier in the future.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#122

Post by qaq »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #105
bjornjaja wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Im sure the lawyers thought of that angle, but the mining company currently doesn’t do anything to effect change so they probably won’t unless their customers (tech companies) demand a change. It really is unfortunate. The mining company should build out proper infrastructure but I’m guessing they just delegate to (corrupt) locals. This is no different than all the global environmental issues we’re facing with large…

But I mean, you see what’s wrong here right? The lawyers thought about it from the angle of who’s actually responsible , but realized that suing that company probably wouldn’t accomplish much lasting change. So they made up reasons to also sue popular tech companies, in hopes that embarrassing them will help serve the lawyers’ goals. That’s not how the process is supposed to work.

"And I would encourage the people at Glencore to take this seriously" is the harshest thing they actually say about them . The company that fronts for people responsible for unimaginable amount of horrors from Putin's inner circle to Dictators all over the world.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#123

Post by mcv »

solidasparagus wrote: post #57
celticmusic wrote: post #31

Then the law needs to change. It's unconscionable for this to be happening. You make the buyers of that cobalt start caring, you'll make the producers of that cobalt start caring.

I don't think this makes much sense. The mineral supply chain in that part of the world is ridiculously hard to track. Even when you stop buying directly from the DRC, the minerals flow over the borders (see how Rwandan coltan exports jumped when people stopped buying DRC 'conflict' coltan). That part of the DRC is basically beyond the reach of the Congolese government and the bordering countries have been waging pro…

It being hard to track is no excuse. We shouldn't be buying products from such abusive practices. We banned slavery, child labour and other abusive practices in our own countries, but by allowing the imports of such products from other countries, we're still indirectly making use of slavery and child labour.

Recently I heard that every person in a wealthy country effectively makes use of two slaves this way.

So these products being hard to track is no excuse. We should not allow the import of products where there's any uncertainty about their supply chain. Tech giants should have a responsibility to know where their minerals come from.

And this is not just about electronics or about the DRC. I think we shouldn't let our football teams play in Qatar stadiums built by slaves. We shouldn't be importing clothes made by child labour. We shouldn't be importing from countries that don't respect the rights of workers.

We're undermining our own freedom as well as our own economies by allowing this. We're indirectly abusing people in other countries, but we're also expecting out workers to compete with them. It's undermining everything we fought for over the past century.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#124

Post by neuroticfish »

FussyZeus wrote: post #87
solidasparagus wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 'infrastructure is a little hit and miss' Lol. The problem isn't a lack of roads, it's the fact that parts of eastern DRC are still effectively war zones. This isn't tech companies not caring, this is an ongoing war, a government incapable of controlling the country (and hardly the good guys even where they do have control), rebel groups (which have control over minerals and need income) running their own proto-sta…

They know enough to get the damn cobalt. They can know more if they want to, or, more likely, not do business with the sort of shady ass organizations who use child labor specifically because they can't get the documentation. I really don't understand this "that's just the way it is" thinking when it comes to corporations doing shady shit overseas. If I went to my DMV and I said "I need to register this car" and had…

>Yet, somehow, a multiBILLION dollar company can just buy material from warlords or whatever tribe in remote parts of China, and ship MILLIONS OF POUNDS of it out of that region, but nobody can get a fucking receipt?

What normally happens in this process is that the selling country's government official who is tasked with verifying the integrity of the receipt is bribed with a month or more salary to sign the exchange off as legitimate, e.g. the Kimberley Process. There has got to be a solution to this problem but paper trails are notoriously unreliable in scenarios like this one.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#125

Post by FussyZeus »

solidasparagus wrote: post #120
FussyZeus wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> unless the buyers choose to stop using the minerals altogether. BINGO. That's what you do. If the ass end of Mogadishu can't provide the minerals without using exploitative labor practices, THEN DON'T BUY FROM THE ASS END OF MOGADISHU. And if that means an iPhone costs $200 more then that's what it fucking means, because no iPhone is worth it's weight in human suffering to have.

This is one of those feel-good solutions that lets us feel superior but doesn't actually help the people suffering. Demand is not going anywhere. You're also insultingly wrong with your geography.

> This is one of those feel-good solutions that lets us feel superior but doesn't actually help the people suffering.

So because we can't fix their situation for them, we're allowed to actively make it worse? This is such a nonsense point of view. Exploitative industry is not like regular industry. This is not a rising tide that lifts all boats, this is enriching one or two psychopathic monsters at the expense of their entire region, and possibly financing even more in other regions.

The West does not need to go in and "fix" every developing nation, but at the same time, saying "well if we didn't sell them scrapheap ships or buy the minerals their children mine, they'd starve" is a complete abdication of responsibility for the role the demand for those minerals plays in their situation. They mine them because they can sell them, that's the whole point. If you remove the entities buying them, then there's no reason to mine them.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#126

Post by thinkmassive »

MS90 wrote: post #116
FussyZeus wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They know enough to get the damn cobalt. They can know more if they want to, or, more likely, not do business with the sort of shady ass organizations who use child labor specifically because they can't get the documentation. I really don't understand this "that's just the way it is" thinking when it comes to corporations doing shady shit overseas. If I went to my DMV and I said "I need to register this car" and had…

Not disagreeing with you, but I would be surprised if they're buying it directly from the mine and not from some sort of market/middleman/third party company. I wouldn't hold my breath for extensive receipts and documentation either. The miners pictured in the article don't even have shoes and the "hammers" they're given appear to be two pieces of rebar welded together. I'd be surprised to find much documentation at…

FTA...

Q: But I'm asking you, is it possible that these companies can claim that you can't prove that they're actually linked to the cobalt?

A: Certainly the supply chain is opaque. It is complex. But the plaintiffs all were injured and killed at mines owned by companies that have been publicly disclosed as sellers of cobalt to our defendants.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#127

Post by jeffreyrogers »

celticmusic wrote: post #31

Then the law needs to change. It's unconscionable for this to be happening. You make the buyers of that cobalt start caring, you'll make the producers of that cobalt start caring.

There isn't really a government in the part of Congo where Cobalt is mined. There are many militia groups there and the government has very little ability to enforce the law. Changing the law in the US does very little to prevent this.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#129

Post by celticmusic »

solidasparagus wrote: post #57
celticmusic wrote: post #31

Then the law needs to change. It's unconscionable for this to be happening. You make the buyers of that cobalt start caring, you'll make the producers of that cobalt start caring.

I don't think this makes much sense. The mineral supply chain in that part of the world is ridiculously hard to track. Even when you stop buying directly from the DRC, the minerals flow over the borders (see how Rwandan coltan exports jumped when people stopped buying DRC 'conflict' coltan). That part of the DRC is basically beyond the reach of the Congolese government and the bordering countries have been waging pro…

> I don't think this makes much sense.

Let me see if I can put it into terms you can understand.

They prosecute people who look at child porn. Not because those people abused the children, but because those people create the demand that causes the producers to abuse children.

You decrease the demand, you decrease the abuse.

Or in another form.

If you really want to stop illegal immigration, you go after the people employing them, not the illegals themselves. We used to do this and it used to be effective.

There are an innumberable number of examples of going after the demand to affect the supply.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#130

Post by moron4hire »

naravara wrote: post #115
FussyZeus wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not some arcane magic here. This is making companies responsible for the vetting of their suppliers. Do you know how hard it would be for Apple to check out a mining operation? A plane trip and a few days of a couple people's time. That's fucking it. That is NOTHING to a company like Apple, it would barely be a rounding error in their budget. And if the mine is in the midst of a warzone and you can't be sure…

>Do you know how hard it would be for Apple to check out a mining operation? A plane trip and a few days of a couple people's time. No. Not at all. It takes more than that to vet suppliers in a place as developed as China. If you think that's all it takes in an ACTIVE WAR ZONE you're delusional.

His point is that, if it's too hard to vet, then you shouldn't be buying at all. No proof of no exploitation should be treated as proof of exploitation.

I agree. Err on the side of caution. If it "can't be done", it'll be figured out soon enough when trade is completely cut off.

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