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McMindfulness: How mindfulness became the new capitalist spirituality

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Re: McMindfulness: How mindfulness became the new capitalist spirituality

#121
post #66
post #35

Research suggests Mindfulness increases empathy and reduces anger and fear. Wouldn’t reframing soldiers or CEOs worldview to be more compassionate galvanize more positive change than trying to convince Sundar Pichai or soldiers that they are bad people?

research does not indicate that [0]. mindfulness meditation isn't real, people only believe it because it comes from the Mysterious East and it's Ancient. [0] https://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/mindfulness-no...

Kaveren: Mindfulness meditation research is well validated now – I can provide many meta analyses. You can also take a look at the following article that I came across today: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/health-fitness/lifestyle-changes...

Re: McMindfulness: How mindfulness became the new capitalist spirituality

#122
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have a good citation for your first sentence, but not for your second.

It's like a religious person asking you to prove God isn't real. The science favoring meditation in general is shoddy (such as [0]), when a metaanalysis shows no evidence of a key claimed benefit to something, you'd want to be able to demonstrate a flaw in the metaanalysis. It's very much like acupuncture. Fake, but because it's steeped in tradition, people will fall for it. Many Westerners have really uninformed vie…

Your linked article is about transcendental meditation - not mindfulness mediation. Mindfulness meditation research is well validated now – I can provide many meta analyses. You may also like to see the following recent articles:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/health-fitness/lifestyle-changes...

https://theconversation.com/mindfulness-meditation-ten-minut...

https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/cultural-psychiatry/be-here...

https://theconversation.com/mindfulness-can-help-phd-student...

https://thriveglobal.com/stories/meditation-3-reasons-why-yo...

https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/being-while-doing/20...

https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/mindfulness-in-frant...

Re: McMindfulness: How mindfulness became the new capitalist spirituality

#123
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On [0], this "Meta-Analysis" was only for pro-social behavior and the longest study they looked at had people meditate for a total of only three months. You are right science does not have rigorous research to support some of claimed benefits of mindfulness meditation, but calling it fake and citing a sourc that starts its article by declaring meditation pseudoscience does not exactly seem rigorous either. I think th…

What quality evidence exists for a proclaimed benefit of mindfulness that is unique to it, and not standard for relaxation in general?

The following well-conducted studies compared mindfulness to various other 'treatments':

Alsaraireh, et al. (2017). Mindfulness Meditation Versus Physical Exercise in the Management of Depression Among Nursing Students. Journal of Nursing Education, 56(10), 599-604.

Cherkin, et al. (2016). Effect of mindfulness-based stress reduction vs cognitive behavioral therapy or usual care on back pain and functional limitations in adults with chronic low back pain: a randomized clinical trial. JAMA, 315(12), 1240-1249.

Costa, A., 2016. Turning towards or turning away: a comparison of mindfulness meditation and guided imagery relaxation in patients with acute depression. Behav. Cogn. Psychother. 44, 410–419.

Fissler, M., et al., 2016. An investigation of the effects of brief mindfulness training on self-reported interoceptive awareness, the ability to decenter, and their role in the reduction of depressive symptoms. Mindfulness 7, 1170–1181.

Kuyken, W., et al. (2016). Efficacy of mindfulness-based cognitive therapy in prevention of depressive relapse: an individual patient data meta-analysis from randomized trials. JAMA psychiatry, 73(6), 565-574.

Re: McMindfulness: How mindfulness became the new capitalist spirituality

#124
Embracing mindfulness practices literally saved my business this year. It has turned me into a machine, my productivity has skyrocketed. I work alone and from home most days, procrastination was a massive issue - but now just clearing my head twice a day through a simple routine ensures I never shy away from anything.

I am not interested in the religious aspect, as much as I respect the fact that the practice as we know it evolved through the ages thanks to Buddhist and Hindu monks. I don’t see a problem with it: one doesn’t have to be Christian to appreciate Latin calligraphy, or to be Muslim to appreciate algebra.

This said, the critique against corporate entities coopting the practice is predictable and inevitable. If any human technique or technology can be put to good use in order to make money, it will be. It doesn’t mean we shouldn’t use it. A pen can be used to write a novel or a prison sentence, it doesn’t mean the pen itself is bad or that we are somehow “betraying” the intentions of the original inventors of pens.

(Edit: i also don’t think I could ever really meditate with other people... I bet most of these corporate congregations actually achieve very little and are just another social occasion for the people involved).

Re: McMindfulness: How mindfulness became the new capitalist spirituality

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What quality evidence exists for a proclaimed benefit of mindfulness that is unique to it, and not standard for relaxation in general?

The following well-conducted studies compared mindfulness to various other 'treatments': Alsaraireh, et al. (2017). Mindfulness Meditation Versus Physical Exercise in the Management of Depression Among Nursing Students. Journal of Nursing Education, 56(10), 599-604. Cherkin, et al. (2016). Effect of mindfulness-based stress reduction vs cognitive behavioral therapy or usual care on back pain and functional limitation…

Thanks, I'll look into the studies you mentioned.

Edit:

"CONCLUSIONS AND RELEVANCE:

"Among adults with chronic low back pain, treatment with MBSR or CBT, compared with usual care, resulted in greater improvement in back pain and functional limitations at 26 weeks, with no significant differences in outcomes between MBSR and CBT."

I don't consider this evidence in favor of mindfulness. The claim I make is that mindfulness is merely meditation. The benefits ascribed to it are, I claim, that of relaxation.

One other study compares physical exercise to mindfulness, but this isn't a comparison with non-mindfulness relaxation. Also not great evidence. Same with another. There's also one my IP can't access.

Also, I am aware that transcendental meditation isn't the same.

What would convince me mindfulness meditation may indeed have some unique positive property: Study or even better metaanalysis with good quality and reasonable sample size demonstrating that mindfulness meditation performs significantly better than other forms of relaxation. Costa's comes closest to this but the sample size is not very large. I do suspect there may be a placebo effect at play.

Re: McMindfulness: How mindfulness became the new capitalist spirituality

#126

I once got an offer to teach a yoga and meditation class at a company. The stated goal was to give employees tools to handle stress better. I pointed out that the result of mindfulness would most likely be that people would see how harmful a stressful environment Is and either try to change it or to avoid it. Never heard back :) The same happened with yoga. We picked a very small part of the tradition as in asana and…

A typical American thing: having a structural problem with how companies are structured (too stressful, useless deadlines, not enough down time), and instead of collectively fixing the problem, focusing on technical individual solutions that are supposed to help you cope. Tech companies are impressive at this. You see the same shit in healthcare with a ton of supposed innovations that don’t go to the core of why the…

> You see the same shit in healthcare with a ton of supposed innovations that don’t go to the core of why the system is broken.

well, i guess that’s why it’s done: fixing the core of things is hard and requires concentrated energy to fix, which would you choose if you were ‘just another component’ in the system? and those at the top are the beneficiaries, so they have even less incentive to fix core issues (until they become life/wellbeing threatening that is, and then even, it’s probably too late...)

Re: McMindfulness: How mindfulness became the new capitalist spirituality

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The following well-conducted studies compared mindfulness to various other 'treatments': Alsaraireh, et al. (2017). Mindfulness Meditation Versus Physical Exercise in the Management of Depression Among Nursing Students. Journal of Nursing Education, 56(10), 599-604. Cherkin, et al. (2016). Effect of mindfulness-based stress reduction vs cognitive behavioral therapy or usual care on back pain and functional limitation…

Thanks, I'll look into the studies you mentioned. Edit: "CONCLUSIONS AND RELEVANCE: "Among adults with chronic low back pain, treatment with MBSR or CBT, compared with usual care, resulted in greater improvement in back pain and functional limitations at 26 weeks, with no significant differences in outcomes between MBSR and CBT." I don't consider this evidence in favor of mindfulness. The claim I make is that mindful…

I would have agreed with your comment 10-15 years ago – but now, the evidence is overwhelming. I don’t have time today, but I will reply your comment in a day or so (will also cite several meta-analyses). Meanwhile, you can take a look at the many links I provided to your earlier (above) comment – they cite many research studies as well.

Re: McMindfulness: How mindfulness became the new capitalist spirituality

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not totally sure I follow, are you saying most in (non-English, elite) India know that yoga isn’t really a Vedic practice and accept a syncretic history? Admittedly it’s hard to get a feel for that as a westerner when you see someone like Baba Ramdev hanging out with Modi and making anti-Muslim statements. Mainly I was originally saying I agree with you, that we need to be careful of who writes and rewrites histo…

People outside the westernized population don't know what "Vedism" and "Brahmanism" and all these other "deconstructed" monstrosities are, so the question itself is a bit loaded. In anycase, to answer your real question - no, its not a point of contention that Yoga (and Vipassana etc.) are the accumulation of the work of many gurus from radically different traditions of India. Since you're hopelessly caught within th…

For western people(and also most of indians) who want to judge for themselves based only on verifiable facts should read http://www.ambedkar.org/ambcd/02.Annihilation%20of%20Caste.h... to get the incentive model of hinduism and the varna system which is advocated by Vedism. Varna system is basically providing right to people based on birth. At the top of the hierarchy is the Brahmins(priests) . Most of the first generation hindus who you might encounter in America will be most likely to be Brahmins. This was because only Brahmins are allowed to get education according to varna system which was followed until Britishers came to india and setup schools for everyone. My great great grand fathers owned 600 acres of land but did not had any education. They were okay with it because the people at the bottom of the hierarchy are not allowed to own lands. The varna sytem is setup in such a way that by honoring it one gets more rights that the lower hierarchy but lesser than the higher hierarchy. At the top there was Brahmin(priests) who enjoyed all the rights and who had lot to lose with the fall of varna sytem. So that is the reason you can see all the Brahmins support Hinduism even if they dont believe in god.

Re: McMindfulness: How mindfulness became the new capitalist spirituality

#129
post #27
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may also happen that as they wake up they discover other aspects of Buddhism that lead them to continue to evolve their practice so they are not harming others.

Yes, and while I don’t teach corporate mindfulness currently, I have colleagues who do, and I believe they do so responsibly. When done well, it will sometimes pick up speed and initiate rather profound changes in corporate culture. Not always or even often (usually it just fizzles), but sometimes. Corporate executives are people too, and somd of them (certainly not all) are good-hearted and honestly looking for a wa…

The very idea of "corporate mindfulness" goes against the logic that led to mindfulness, and ultimately it only helps in misdirection as to what the issue really is.

Re: McMindfulness: How mindfulness became the new capitalist spirituality

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People outside the westernized population don't know what "Vedism" and "Brahmanism" and all these other "deconstructed" monstrosities are, so the question itself is a bit loaded. In anycase, to answer your real question - no, its not a point of contention that Yoga (and Vipassana etc.) are the accumulation of the work of many gurus from radically different traditions of India. Since you're hopelessly caught within th…

For western people(and also most of indians) who want to judge for themselves based only on verifiable facts should read http://www.ambedkar.org/ambcd/02.Annihilation%20of%20Caste.h... to get the incentive model of hinduism and the varna system which is advocated by Vedism. Varna system is basically providing right to people based on birth. At the top of the hierarchy is the Brahmins(priests) . Most of the first gene…

> For western people(and also most of indians) who want to judge for themselves based only on verifiable facts.

Sigh. Ambedkar's works are full of protestant rhetoric and very little "facts", and the tragedy of politicization of "caste" today is that saying something obvious like this out in India will almost instantly lead you to jail along with a non-returnable fine of $500-1000 (or worse).

Ambedkar in AoC, says that while "endogamy" is the only real tenet of "varna system", and while widely prevalent the world over, was unique in India because it was religiously sanctioned by the "vedic religion". Yet, after 200 years of Sanskrit study, those who swear by this theory can't produce a single verse that supports this - all you get are Indology's "free-hand" translations which change temporally to support Europe's social theory de jour. Ambedkar himself in this work calls the "varna system" a useless system of endogamy, which produced racial mongrels, and was against the appreciable goal of eugenics.

The stories just don't add up. Despite "caste system" being a "core" part of "vedic religion", it was somehow widely prevalent in Muslims and Christians (whose zealous violence in India is well documented). Despite the pyramidal "rigid" structure, "Brahmins" were often poor, and not only were there "Shudra" kings in Bharata, but many great men like AryaBhata were Shudras themselves. Indeed, when the British took over Madras, they found that most village schools were filled mostly with non-Brahmins [1]. The British even found that the schooling in Indian villages were much better than those in Britain themselves [1}.

Modern works on this monstrous "caste system" show how hollow this field of study is - in fact, as many like Nicholas Dirks (U Berkeley) and S Balagangadhara (U Ghent) have shown, there is no such meaningful entity. There are communities and tribes like the world over, but there is no "ministry of caste deviations", nor was there ever such a thing manned by "Brahmin priests" denying people "salvation from hell". Such a "ministry of caste" was only formed during British times, because their form of jurisprudence could not comprehend the "evil pagan" Indian society, and they still insisted that all transactions pass through them (while they sucked India dry).

It's a story sold by colonized idiots to their masters, in order to receive more funding and power. Indeed, since these powerful lobbies have secured nearly 50-90% of all positions in education, bureaucracy and soon private corporations, it's routine in India today to protest for "backwardness" status for one's community.

It's a repeat of the discrimination of the Jewry in Europe - instead of explicit laws you just squeeze them out of the system. No wonder too, since Indology through its glorious history simultaneously demonized both the Jews while they appropriated India's literature, and the Brahmins, while they helped the Empire secure its roots.

It's not surprising that those who speak about "caste" and "evils of Indian culture" are often the same people who will not touch the economic destruction, and consequent loss of status of the manufacturing/artisan communities of India, and often see the British as "angels descending onto India, with Christianity and God's language - English"

I'd echo parent's comments - do read Ambedkar's work for yourself. The man is known for making insane theories - like "Shudras are Buddhists survivors of Hindu violence (who somehow had Hindu practices}" - and this rabble-rousing pamphlet is no different. Little wonder that he was supported by the British, much as they did the Dravidian movt. and the Muslim league on the eve of "Independence".

[1.] The Beautiful Tree - Dharampal.

https://archive.org/details/DharampalCollectedWritingsIn5Vol...

(The original British surveys on Indian education from the 18th century are on archive.org somewhere; you should be able to source it}

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