Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018) • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

#121

Post by bumby » Mon, Nov 25, 2019, 6:58 PM UTC

MisterTea wrote: post #112

bumby wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alternate take: Large civil projects are more complex than home renovation projects and are thus less likely to be accurately assessed by our simple planning heuristics. (see "the planning fallacy"). Each gap in the actual vs. planned outcome requires change-orders that slow down schedules and cost more money. http://freakonomics.com/podcast/project-management/

It's what happens when there are many contractors involved, each intertwined in a complex relationship, each needing to schedule around each other and each with half a dozen sub contractors under them with the same complex requirements. So 200 square ft of tile takes three months because the tilers are hired by the tiling company who is hired by the contractor hired to finish the walls who was hired by the main contr…

This is talked about in the link above. Specifically, they call it "coordination neglect":

>The failure to think about how hard it is to put stuff together when other people are involved. And so that can make the planning fallacy bigger and badder when there are teams of people trying to finish work on time.

Re: Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

#122

Post by bumby » Mon, Nov 25, 2019, 7:08 PM UTC

snagglegaggle wrote: post #120

MisterTea wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's what happens when there are many contractors involved, each intertwined in a complex relationship, each needing to schedule around each other and each with half a dozen sub contractors under them with the same complex requirements. So 200 square ft of tile takes three months because the tilers are hired by the tiling company who is hired by the contractor hired to finish the walls who was hired by the main contr…

Seems like laws need to be drawn up to make this unprofitable. It should be easy enough to get out of paying people standing around not behaving in a "competent and workmanlike manner." Or even the entire company. If it doesn't happen, why pay? As you've described, what is going on is corruption due to lack of oversight.

Similar to the coordination problems among different trades, I think there's a lot of interplay between competing interests that make something that seems simple on the surface much more complex.

Take crane operations for instance. An organization may require union crane operators as a means of oversight to help guarantee trained and certified operators for a hazardous operation. However, this often has unintended consequences as union crane operations may also require positions like a crane oiler, which are largely obsolete in modern equipment.

I don't think that constitutes corruption because it's completely transparent and above board, even if unwise.

Re: Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

#123

Post by blaser-waffle » Mon, Nov 25, 2019, 7:14 PM UTC

LegitShady wrote: post #21

Design, land, environmental permitting and remediation, noise and dust remediation, aboriginal/metis consultation, utility components on LRT/subway projects can span years and costs millions of dollars per utility and a given kilometer may have 100. and then you have to actually build whatever it is. Just doesn't seem like an analysis with enough detail.

Yeah, surprised no one mentioned environmental permits and aboriginal consults -- those were the two items that were/are holding up the big pipeline projects in Canada.

Re: Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

#124

Post by aussiegreenie » Mon, Nov 25, 2019, 7:30 PM UTC

Firstly, the cost of construction EVERYWHERE is going up. In America, every major construction is TWICE the cost per mile than it is in Europe. Australia is 50% higher again.

eg Sydney purchased surplus trams from Spain. To create a tramline from Randwick to the city (25min bus trip) has already cost USD 2,100 Million (AUD 3,100 Million) and is years late. Spain did the whole line for USD 115 million.

Re: Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

#125

Post by RowanH » Mon, Nov 25, 2019, 7:34 PM UTC

aussiegreenie wrote: post #124

Firstly, the cost of construction EVERYWHERE is going up. In America, every major construction is TWICE the cost per mile than it is in Europe. Australia is 50% higher again. eg Sydney purchased surplus trams from Spain. To create a tramline from Randwick to the city (25min bus trip) has already cost USD 2,100 Million (AUD 3,100 Million) and is years late. Spain did the whole line for USD 115 million.

Wait till you cross the ditch to New Zealand, our materials costs are through the roof...

Re: Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

#126

Post by bumby » Mon, Nov 25, 2019, 7:36 PM UTC

Magi604 wrote: post #25

moltar wrote: post #17

As I can see from living in Canada and travelling the world there can be several reasons: - corruption, especially in QC - over-the-top safety requirements, regardless of project size. E.g. in Toronto every road work sight has a police officer present who’s just standing there bored out of their mind. In Montreal it’d be two persons on each side holding a flag - a job in Europe replaced by a temporary semaphore. - la…

Over-the-top safety requirements are spot on I think. Here in BC Worksafe BC just constantly adds on new rules and regulations every year, and they don't care about your company's budget or productivity. I know Worksafe programs are similar from province to province, so I would be curious to see a comparison of Canadian Worksafe safety standards to safety standards from around the world to see just how much more (or…

How does Canada compare to the U.S.? United States citizens have a legal right to a safe work environment which is what drives many of the safety requirements. The others are generally best practices stemming from past lessons learned. Do Canadian workers have similar rights?

If so, your comment of " just constantly adds on new rules and regulations every year, and they don't care about your company's budget or productivity." could be read to acknowledge that it's not the government's job to preserve a company's budget or productivity, but rather preserve their citizens' right to a safe work environment.

In a perfect world, profit and safety could align but when they don't I'm not sure it's fair to chastise an organization for upholding their competing interest. The above can be all disregarded if Canadians don't have similar rights, it was just a thought.

Re: Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

#127

Post by blackearl » Mon, Nov 25, 2019, 7:55 PM UTC

MisterTea wrote: post #109

blackearl wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll regularly see a those cops hanging out in front of a construction site (doing nothing) or sitting in their cars (doing nothing). They could just as effectively be replaced with an orange cone.

They certainly are needed. I was snared in late night construction traffic near Baltimore waiting for a crane to lift a beam. I was in the middle lane preparing to merge over and was at an angle along with another two guys in a car to our right from the right lane. Suddenly there's this beeping coming from a car that's trying to get between us. We then hear a young woman asking to let her pass. "Excuse me, can you pl…

Daily I walk past a street that is a dead end, and there is construction being done at the far end of this dead end. Every day there are 2-3 police officers standing at the top of the street. It's a gross misuse of time and funds.

Re: Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

#128

Post by tptacek » Mon, Nov 25, 2019, 8:43 PM UTC

quaquaqua1 wrote: post #113

tptacek wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a great city. But there's lots not to like about living in a big city. I find NYC almost incredibly oppressive and confining and crazymaking, but I don't wonder why people love it; I also get why people move out to farms in Minnesota, even though I'd never do that myself. But you're not allowed to say that "the wind" is why you don't like Chicago. (Fair warning, I have our city's flag inked on my arm, so I may b…

Yeah I'm not referencing the wind in Chicago but rather the oppressive cold which is worse than most parts of the world with a population larger than x :)

It's about the same as Boston, marginally colder than NYC, and substantially warmer than Montreal. :)

Re: Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

#129

Post by magduf » Mon, Nov 25, 2019, 9:13 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #100

magduf wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Funny. I grew up in the city and lived there for most of my adult life and never had any issues with any of those things. >Source: someone's who's spent more time in Chicago than someone's who's visited a handful of times. Of course you'd like it, you're used to the place. The city is called "the windy city" for a reason, and is certainly not known to have weather resembling southern California. If you like it, that…

Just don't visit between November and March. The "Windy City" thing has little to do with our weather; winds are empirically worse in New York and San Francisco. If you have almost no experience with the city, it's easy to project and extrapolate from its nickname.

>winds are empirically worse in New York and San Francisco.

Well New York isn't exactly famous for great weather either...

Re: Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

#130

Post by smabie » Mon, Nov 25, 2019, 9:35 PM UTC

magduf wrote: post #118

smabie wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NYC doesn’t even make it in the top 10 biggest cities in the world. In fact NYC comes just behind Chengdu in 38th place. And in terms of density, NYC isn’t even in the top 50.

>And in terms of density, NYC isn’t even in the top 50. I don't believe that. If you look at Manhattan alone, you'll see something very different. Unlike many other cities (particularly in the US, but also other places), NYC is basically a collection of cities. Manhattan is dense, but Staten Island is definitely not, so that drags down the average density. It's not fair to compare that with many other places.

So do you not believe that or is it not fair?