I’m Convinced We Found Evidence of Life on Mars in the 1970s • Hacker News Board

Re: I’m Convinced We Found Evidence of Life on Mars in the 1970s

#121

Post by JacksonGariety » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 6:14 AM UTC

Razengan wrote: post #120

Excuse the cliche question, but what is Life? If we make an AI whose thoughts and communication are practically indistinguishable from humans, and it controls a bunch of things that affect the physical world, is it alive? If there's a disembodied mind somewhere that can think and imagine but never communicate or interact with anything, is it dead? What about a human in a coma or permanent dreaming state? What about w…

The concept of life is not unique in this regard. One can form a similar argument for any concept whatsoever.

It's more useful to situate concepts such as 'life' at the center of constellations of other concepts such as 'self-determination', 'will', 'evolution', and so on.

Re: I’m Convinced We Found Evidence of Life on Mars in the 1970s

#122

Post by tbabb » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 6:14 AM UTC

Razengan wrote: post #120

Excuse the cliche question, but what is Life? If we make an AI whose thoughts and communication are practically indistinguishable from humans, and it controls a bunch of things that affect the physical world, is it alive? If there's a disembodied mind somewhere that can think and imagine but never communicate or interact with anything, is it dead? What about a human in a coma or permanent dreaming state? What about w…

Life is that which is subject to Darwinian evolution.

That definition catches every single thing you'd call life, excludes all the things that clearly aren't, disambiguates some grey cases, and illuminates one or two new phenomena to be life which you might not have realized.

To be clear, Darwinian evolution means:

- It makes copies of itself (reproduction)

- The copies take traits from the original (inheritance)

- The traits can vary among the copies and between generations (mutation)

- The copies' ability to make more copies depends on the traits they inherit (selection)

Re: I’m Convinced We Found Evidence of Life on Mars in the 1970s

#123

Post by ianai » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 6:16 AM UTC

powerbroker wrote: post #103

imglorp wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the "swapping spit" scenario, we the aliens and they are us. If genetic material did travel in either direction, it would be easily verified.

There is life on Mars -- JPL just doesn't want to tell us. Follow this logic: 1) two planets in habitable zone - both spontaneously cause life; 2) then many or most habitable zone planets have life; 3) Of the trillions of stars in our galaxy, there must be multitudes that have hosted intelligent life; 4) we don't hear SETI signals; 5) that means SETI must have snuffed themselves out with some super-technology; 6) erg…

We already know we’re all doomed. The sun bakes us in somewhere around 5 billion years.

Re: I’m Convinced We Found Evidence of Life on Mars in the 1970s

#124

Post by kthejoker2 » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 6:17 AM UTC

asdff wrote: post #106

psaux wrote: post #7

I often wonder why these are always auxiliary conversations. Ever since I was young, like most kids (I have 4), I also had this deep yearning for knowledge on life external to earth. Wonder why this never has gone mainstream.

The barrier to be interested in these things is far lower than it is to directly work on them. Then there's the realities of being an american adult where even science is politicized. Think of all the boomers that grew up watching the space race with baited breath. I bet some of these same people today would support a politician who would defund NASA if it meant saving $30 a year on their taxes.

> baited breath

Bated, as in abated.

Fun fact: bated breath was coined by Shakespeare.

Re: I’m Convinced We Found Evidence of Life on Mars in the 1970s

#125

Post by Razengan » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 6:19 AM UTC

tbabb wrote: post #122

Razengan wrote: post #120

Excuse the cliche question, but what is Life? If we make an AI whose thoughts and communication are practically indistinguishable from humans, and it controls a bunch of things that affect the physical world, is it alive? If there's a disembodied mind somewhere that can think and imagine but never communicate or interact with anything, is it dead? What about a human in a coma or permanent dreaming state? What about w…

Life is that which is subject to Darwinian evolution. That definition catches every single thing you'd call life, excludes all the things that clearly aren't, disambiguates some grey cases, and illuminates one or two new phenomena to be life which you might not have realized. To be clear, Darwinian evolution means: - It makes copies of itself (reproduction) - The copies take traits from the original (inheritance) - T…

> It makes copies of itself (reproduction) ...

Again, what about species that don't reproduce themselves, but spawn from a single "factory"?

That factory may be nothing like them. It could be a mechanical factory producing automatons (with human-level thought if you need that criteria), or a universally-unique "mother" creature, or even a non-sentient spawning pool where they spontaneously form every now and then.

If there are entire planets populated by such entities, and they have governed over many things for as much time as we have occupied our Earth, would you still classify them as not-life in your dealings with them?

That would be like not considering Taiwan a country. (Sorry, couldn't resist injecting contemporary political commentary.)

Re: I’m Convinced We Found Evidence of Life on Mars in the 1970s

#126

Post by Gibbon1 » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 6:19 AM UTC

ianai wrote: post #123

powerbroker wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is life on Mars -- JPL just doesn't want to tell us. Follow this logic: 1) two planets in habitable zone - both spontaneously cause life; 2) then many or most habitable zone planets have life; 3) Of the trillions of stars in our galaxy, there must be multitudes that have hosted intelligent life; 4) we don't hear SETI signals; 5) that means SETI must have snuffed themselves out with some super-technology; 6) erg…

We already know we’re all doomed. The sun bakes us in somewhere around 5 billion years.

I think the scuttlebutt is the sun gets increasingly brighter and strips off all the earths hydrogen in about a billion years.

Re: I’m Convinced We Found Evidence of Life on Mars in the 1970s

#127

Post by jamiek88 » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 6:21 AM UTC

tbabb wrote: post #122

Razengan wrote: post #120

Excuse the cliche question, but what is Life? If we make an AI whose thoughts and communication are practically indistinguishable from humans, and it controls a bunch of things that affect the physical world, is it alive? If there's a disembodied mind somewhere that can think and imagine but never communicate or interact with anything, is it dead? What about a human in a coma or permanent dreaming state? What about w…

Life is that which is subject to Darwinian evolution. That definition catches every single thing you'd call life, excludes all the things that clearly aren't, disambiguates some grey cases, and illuminates one or two new phenomena to be life which you might not have realized. To be clear, Darwinian evolution means: - It makes copies of itself (reproduction) - The copies take traits from the original (inheritance) - T…

Certain genetic algorithms could fulfill this criteria.

Could software be alive?

Re: I’m Convinced We Found Evidence of Life on Mars in the 1970s

#128

Post by JacksonGariety » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 6:22 AM UTC

Razengan wrote: post #120

Excuse the cliche question, but what is Life? If we make an AI whose thoughts and communication are practically indistinguishable from humans, and it controls a bunch of things that affect the physical world, is it alive? If there's a disembodied mind somewhere that can think and imagine but never communicate or interact with anything, is it dead? What about a human in a coma or permanent dreaming state? What about w…

Excuse the cliche question, but who is Razengan?

If we make an HN account whose thoughts and communication are practically indistinguishable from Razengan's, and it makes similar comments in all the same threads, is this account actually Razengan's?

The answer to "Who is Razengan?" is probably this: Whoever other HN users think Razengan is.

Re: I’m Convinced We Found Evidence of Life on Mars in the 1970s

#129

Post by tbabb » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 6:23 AM UTC

Razengan wrote: post #125

tbabb wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Life is that which is subject to Darwinian evolution. That definition catches every single thing you'd call life, excludes all the things that clearly aren't, disambiguates some grey cases, and illuminates one or two new phenomena to be life which you might not have realized. To be clear, Darwinian evolution means: - It makes copies of itself (reproduction) - The copies take traits from the original (inheritance) - T…

> It makes copies of itself (reproduction) ... Again, what about species that don't reproduce themselves, but spawn from a single "factory"? That factory may be nothing like them. It could be a mechanical factory producing automatons (with human-level thought if you need that criteria), or a universally-unique "mother" creature, or even a non-sentient spawning pool where they spontaneously form every now and then. If…

> or a single "mother" creature

How did the "mother" creature come to be? By what mechanism did its complexity emerge?

There is no known or plausible mechanism by which complex life can arise without evolution, and technology which does not change its design is (very appropriately) by the definition above, not life.

Re: I’m Convinced We Found Evidence of Life on Mars in the 1970s

#130

Post by tbabb » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 6:25 AM UTC

jamiek88 wrote: post #127

tbabb wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Life is that which is subject to Darwinian evolution. That definition catches every single thing you'd call life, excludes all the things that clearly aren't, disambiguates some grey cases, and illuminates one or two new phenomena to be life which you might not have realized. To be clear, Darwinian evolution means: - It makes copies of itself (reproduction) - The copies take traits from the original (inheritance) - T…

Certain genetic algorithms could fulfill this criteria. Could software be alive?

I'd say yes.

Note that "alive" by the given definition doesn't imply "conscious" or "intelligent" (though that is certainly logically possible for software too, though I doubt that has happened yet).