Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Hong Kong protests: Authorities to announce face mask ban

bbc.co.uk

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 134 posts

Re: Hong Kong protests: Authorities to announce face mask ban

#121

Post by loceng »

squarefoot wrote: post #110
loceng wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The scenario you paint here would only be true if a society's population truly were "enemies" and holding very different human beliefs, wants - which fortunately isn't the case - because the people of a nation evolve together generally; the problem arises when you mix two different people from different nations with different cultures, where this "50/50" destructive behaviour can exist - say when the native Americans…

"Otherwise you paint an unrealistic, bleak picture which isn't grounded in reality if there's optimism and humanity included." True, still many western countries had examples of episodic police brutality causing tortures [1] and fatalities among protestors, and probably it was other people humanity and optimism, along with public outrage, to keep these events episodic. But the point is: what happens if after the firs…

The biggest difference between now and "then" is the internet and our connectivity, audio and video + live streaming for real-time evidence gathering; yes, I'm aware bad actors are capable of signal jamming in an area or at scale, or taking down the internet - is why the democratic nations and people that are free must strengthen in case of a future confrontation with these bad actors, and likewise technology like mesh networks are expanding - although a nation could block mesh networks too with enough effort - and really then blocking communications is more a signal to the rest of the world that we're dealing with a tyrannical government.

Re: Hong Kong protests: Authorities to announce face mask ban

#122

Post by kmonsen »

malandrew wrote: post #114
kmonsen wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just not true. Authoritarian governments are kept in check by free speech and openness of government. Sanders and Warren are clearly if favor of citizens being in charge of the government.

"citizens" is a term vague to the point of meaninglessness. Not sure what you're definition you're using, but pretty much all authoritarian communist governments in the 20th and 21st century had citizens in charge of the government. That didn't do a whole lot of good for the citizens that were not in charge. The DPRK is pretty much the only one where the responsibility of who was in charge was passed on from parent t…

I mean all citizen, not some special citizens or a few citizens. Of course if the power is in the hands of the few it doesn't matter at all which label you put on them.

Re: Hong Kong protests: Authorities to announce face mask ban

#123

Post by kmonsen »

verttii wrote: post #58
kmonsen wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people of HK have tried other more peaceful approaches in the past and have received nothing in return from Beijing. Do you have any propositions of what citizens of HK, or China, can do to get more freedoms like freedom of speech or from random arrests on trumped up charges which is how the current situation started? I don't think anyone in HK want to be in this situation but for many they see it as a last c…

Countries who have successfully gained independence have often sacrificed a lot of blood for it. And built strong armed forces to back that independence up with. Whatever we may think is morally right, HK does not seem to be putting together that hard resistance, nor is it building up its own armed forces to declare and maintain independence with. China thinks HK is legally theirs and nothing we say or do will change…

I don't think we disagree?

Note that there has historically been another way, to force the oppressor to be brutal enough that they, or the people sent to do it, will turn on the government. This worked in India against the British and almost worked in Tiananmen, rural army units had to be called in. I don't think it will work currently against China, but it is the only thing HK protestors are willing to do which I respect them for.

Re: Hong Kong protests: Authorities to announce face mask ban

#124

Post by malandrew »

kmonsen wrote: post #122
malandrew wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"citizens" is a term vague to the point of meaninglessness. Not sure what you're definition you're using, but pretty much all authoritarian communist governments in the 20th and 21st century had citizens in charge of the government. That didn't do a whole lot of good for the citizens that were not in charge. The DPRK is pretty much the only one where the responsibility of who was in charge was passed on from parent t…

I mean all citizen, not some special citizens or a few citizens. Of course if the power is in the hands of the few it doesn't matter at all which label you put on them.

Basically every form of government that has ever existed at scale has devolved into an oligarchy. I know of none where "all citizen [sic], not some special citizens or a few citizens" are in power. A Sanders or Warren government would just have power in the hands of either Sanders or Warren and their respective cabinet and the other three branches of government. It would still be "some special citizens or a few citizens". I haven't seen a single proposal from them that would have then operating any differently from any previous executive administration this country has seen since 1776.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_oligarchy

Re: Hong Kong protests: Authorities to announce face mask ban

#125

Post by verttii »

kmonsen wrote: post #123
verttii wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Countries who have successfully gained independence have often sacrificed a lot of blood for it. And built strong armed forces to back that independence up with. Whatever we may think is morally right, HK does not seem to be putting together that hard resistance, nor is it building up its own armed forces to declare and maintain independence with. China thinks HK is legally theirs and nothing we say or do will change…

I don't think we disagree? Note that there has historically been another way, to force the oppressor to be brutal enough that they, or the people sent to do it, will turn on the government. This worked in India against the British and almost worked in Tiananmen, rural army units had to be called in. I don't think it will work currently against China, but it is the only thing HK protestors are willing to do which I re…

Yeah it's a gamble. It didn't work against the USSR in 1968 but it did work with the Baltics in 1991.

China is as strong and determined as ever, I really don't see any way the protesters would get what they ultimately want.

Re: Hong Kong protests: Authorities to announce face mask ban

#126

Post by andrekandre »

loceng wrote: post #85
malandrew wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s probably mentioning Trump that gets you downvoted. He definitely leans authoritarian on many issues, but so do most of the democrats he’s running against in 2020. Where these two flavors of authoritarian differ is the issues they are authoritarian on. Whether or not someone downvotes you probably has most to do with which issues they are most concerned about with respect to the authoritarian we get. If someone i…

People feeling a quick reward by a dopamine hit of clicking the downvote certainly isn't based on someone's political leanings, who they like or dislike, and certainly is due to laziness - regardless of whatever labels you give yourself. Likewise, Trump's behaviour is in a completely different league than what any other politician in the US has presented - regardless if self-labeling as Democratic or Republican; albe…

doesn’t a federal jobs guarantee just mean that if you can’t find a job, there’s at least somewhere you can go to get one, regardless of the state of the economy?

this is just my interpretation but, i’m not sure that would kill capitalism as much as mean that employees wouldn’t be scared as much from being fired, would be less afraid to be entrepreneurial (worst case in failure, you have a job until you can try again or find a better job in the private sector) etc...

same goes for medicare for all and tuition free college... i don’t see the authoritarian part (as your previous post alludes to) but maybe i’m missing something.

Re: Hong Kong protests: Authorities to announce face mask ban

#127

Post by andrekandre »

malandrew wrote: post #124
kmonsen wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean all citizen, not some special citizens or a few citizens. Of course if the power is in the hands of the few it doesn't matter at all which label you put on them.

Basically every form of government that has ever existed at scale has devolved into an oligarchy. I know of none where "all citizen [sic], not some special citizens or a few citizens" are in power. A Sanders or Warren government would just have power in the hands of either Sanders or Warren and their respective cabinet and the other three branches of government. It would still be "some special citizens or a few citiz…

> A Sanders or Warren government would just have power in the hands of either Sanders or Warren and their respective cabinet and the other three branches of government. It would still be "some special citizens or a few citizens"

then what is the alternative that you propose?

Re: Hong Kong protests: Authorities to announce face mask ban

#128

Post by loceng »

squarefoot wrote: post #110
loceng wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The scenario you paint here would only be true if a society's population truly were "enemies" and holding very different human beliefs, wants - which fortunately isn't the case - because the people of a nation evolve together generally; the problem arises when you mix two different people from different nations with different cultures, where this "50/50" destructive behaviour can exist - say when the native Americans…

"Otherwise you paint an unrealistic, bleak picture which isn't grounded in reality if there's optimism and humanity included." True, still many western countries had examples of episodic police brutality causing tortures [1] and fatalities among protestors, and probably it was other people humanity and optimism, along with public outrage, to keep these events episodic. But the point is: what happens if after the firs…

Police brutality, lack of adequate accountability, is an evolving process that is trickling through society - through different states at different speeds: it's one of the values of giving relative sovereignty to each state so society can compare and contrast the different societal "experiments" based on their policies - allowing people to freedom to move between states and therefore the leadership they're under at the state level-context.

Re: Hong Kong protests: Authorities to announce face mask ban

#129

Post by malandrew »

andrekandre wrote: post #127
malandrew wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basically every form of government that has ever existed at scale has devolved into an oligarchy. I know of none where "all citizen [sic], not some special citizens or a few citizens" are in power. A Sanders or Warren government would just have power in the hands of either Sanders or Warren and their respective cabinet and the other three branches of government. It would still be "some special citizens or a few citiz…

> A Sanders or Warren government would just have power in the hands of either Sanders or Warren and their respective cabinet and the other three branches of government. It would still be "some special citizens or a few citizens" then what is the alternative that you propose?

I'm not proposing an alternative. I'm happy with our Constitution and our three branches of government with checks and balances enforced. We have the 1st and 2nd amendment as a Plan A and the Plan B, respectively, to prevent tyranny.

Re: Hong Kong protests: Authorities to announce face mask ban

#130

Post by malandrew »

andrekandre wrote: post #126
loceng wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People feeling a quick reward by a dopamine hit of clicking the downvote certainly isn't based on someone's political leanings, who they like or dislike, and certainly is due to laziness - regardless of whatever labels you give yourself. Likewise, Trump's behaviour is in a completely different league than what any other politician in the US has presented - regardless if self-labeling as Democratic or Republican; albe…

doesn’t a federal jobs guarantee just mean that if you can’t find a job, there’s at least somewhere you can go to get one, regardless of the state of the economy? this is just my interpretation but, i’m not sure that would kill capitalism as much as mean that employees wouldn’t be scared as much from being fired, would be less afraid to be entrepreneurial (worst case in failure, you have a job until you can try again…

The only way I'd be okay with a federal jobs guarantee is if it were a job that truly sucked so much that no one would want to do it and that they'd work hard to qualify for literally any other job but the federally guaranteed one. We'd also have to get rid of welfare. Sucking on the teat of the state should never be an attractive proposition.

Society only functions well if everyone makes a reasonable effort to be useful to one another.

Post reply on HN