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DevOps didn’t exist when I started as a developer

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Re: DevOps didn’t exist when I started as a developer

#121

Post by wrycoder »

procinct wrote: post #113
GordonS wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the parent, but I agree fully with their point - agile is good; but there is a difference between "agile" and "Agile". Especially in the enterprise world, agile has been overran by worthless certifications and so-called "Agile" consultants/experts, who broadly fall into 1 of 2 groups: project managers looking to cash in, and technically inept "senior developers" looking to cash in by turning consultant. Every one…

Appreciate you explaining this point further, I didn’t realise there was a difference between ‘agile’ vs ‘Agile’ and the only other methodology I had heard of was waterfall which also seems to be universally disliked.

Waterfall had its place in military and aerospace, where the requirements and API were well-defined, and to a lesser extent in life-critical medical systems development.

But in even those cases, it was largely replaced by Spiral, which is similar to agile and pre-dates it.

Edit: Spiral is like going down the Waterfall two or more times. Similar to agile, but formally documented, with management and customer sign-off up the line, and with a much longer cycle time.

Re: DevOps didn’t exist when I started as a developer

#122

Post by crummy »

procinct wrote: post #76
headmelted wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Personally I think DevOps is like religion As long as no-one is knocking on my door asking if I have five minutes to discuss Agile development methodologies. I could reasonably defend most of what people attach to the "DevOps" buzzword as sane practices most of us were already doing before the hoopla. Agile (with a capital A) is the absolute worst thing that has ever happened to the software industry. Kill off that…

What’s your preferred methodology to Agile? Waterfall?

Shape Up sounds interesting, particularly for remote-only teams in non-massive companies. Haven't tried it but it sounds interesting.

https://basecamp.com/shapeup

Re: DevOps didn’t exist when I started as a developer

#123

Post by journalctl »

zwkrt wrote: post #7

Sidebar: does anyone else get the feeling that infrastructure as code is just cloud vendor lock-in by another name? Especially since the output of the code ends up being wild unstructured JSON/YAML files with no spec or discernible schema. My favorite is how in the Microsoft toolchain you can build a CI pipeline in a visual UI on the right that automatically updates the YAML file on the left. “We know you don’t want…

You’re using a cloud provider; you’re already locked in. But you’re also locked in like you’re locked in by your OS or your programming language or your ISP, which is to say: the whole point of cloud providers is to abstract away a certain set of things. You can look at it as lock-in, or as using a platform that enables you to solve the problems you care about. You can look at your OS as lock-in, or a tool that enables you to solve the problems you care about. If your goal is to provide cloud infrastructure quickly and easily and without building a data center, then lock-in doesn’t really matter. And if it does, there are more expensive, more appropriate options.

Re: DevOps didn’t exist when I started as a developer

#124

Post by rurban »

It certainly did exist when I started my career a decade earlier than this guy. It was called the integration team, which was responsible for coordination of the release. In the 80ies.

It was also responsible for the build servers, the SCM, and checking and prioritizing all the different parts and fixes of the various dev teams, and checking back with the PM and testers. Only hackers did cowboy coding, companies preferred processes and best practices. That's it was called "Software Engineering" and not hacking. I heard Margaret Hamilton coined that term in the 60ies for the Apollo project, which she managed.

Re: DevOps didn’t exist when I started as a developer

#125

Post by jart »

journalctl wrote: post #123
zwkrt wrote: post #7

Sidebar: does anyone else get the feeling that infrastructure as code is just cloud vendor lock-in by another name? Especially since the output of the code ends up being wild unstructured JSON/YAML files with no spec or discernible schema. My favorite is how in the Microsoft toolchain you can build a CI pipeline in a visual UI on the right that automatically updates the YAML file on the left. “We know you don’t want…

You’re using a cloud provider; you’re already locked in. But you’re also locked in like you’re locked in by your OS or your programming language or your ISP, which is to say: the whole point of cloud providers is to abstract away a certain set of things. You can look at it as lock-in, or as using a platform that enables you to solve the problems you care about. You can look at your OS as lock-in, or a tool that enabl…

Lock-In is defined as, "an arrangement according to which a person or company is obliged to deal only with a specific company."

Re: DevOps didn’t exist when I started as a developer

#126

Post by deboflo »

eternalban wrote: post #36
johngalt wrote: post #30

DevOps is the intersection of three things. 1. Developers learning that running code is not the same thing as reliable code. Certain things must be put in at design time to allow for operations. 2. Operations people supporting development by formalizing/streamlining the deployment process to have changes occur faster, safer, and more often. 3. Aligning goals and attitudes in such a way that prevents conflict between…

DevOps is blue collar work. Software Engineering used to be white collar work. Think boiler room vs drafting room.

Labels like these are meaningless. I make more money as a DevOps Engineer than I did as a Google SWE, and I have significantly more responsibilities. The DevOps community is diverse. There are “DevOps” engineers who can’t write code (sadly) and those that write incredibly advanced serverless systems that scale massively.

Re: DevOps didn’t exist when I started as a developer

#128

Post by gaahrdner »

rurban wrote: post #124

It certainly did exist when I started my career a decade earlier than this guy. It was called the integration team, which was responsible for coordination of the release. In the 80ies. It was also responsible for the build servers, the SCM, and checking and prioritizing all the different parts and fixes of the various dev teams, and checking back with the PM and testers. Only hackers did cowboy coding, companies pref…

Get 'em! Pretty sure it's just called "teamwork!"

Re: DevOps didn’t exist when I started as a developer

#129

Post by Sharlin »

icedchai wrote: post #99
headmelted wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Personally I think DevOps is like religion As long as no-one is knocking on my door asking if I have five minutes to discuss Agile development methodologies. I could reasonably defend most of what people attach to the "DevOps" buzzword as sane practices most of us were already doing before the hoopla. Agile (with a capital A) is the absolute worst thing that has ever happened to the software industry. Kill off that…

I once worked at a place full of Agile cultists, including a bunch of "certified" "coaches." They spent about 1/4th of the time in planning meetings, retros, grooming sessions, sending emails about updating percentage complete on jira tickets, etc. They made some of the dumbest technical decisions I have ever seen, were perpetually rewriting things, changing core APIs, breaking other parts of the system. The stuff ba…

Seems to me that place would have been dysfunctional with or without their dysfunctional form of ”agile”.

Re: DevOps didn’t exist when I started as a developer

#130

Post by mongol »

procinct wrote: post #95
mongol wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

agile, lowercase a, is not bad.

Right, I didn’t understand there was a difference. Thanks for that, I’ll look into it.

It is not a formal difference, but agile has evolved into an industry itself, with certification ladders and gurus. So on one hand you have the one page agile maniefesto, on the other people who make their living on preaching how teams should work, shouting from the sidelines.
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