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The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

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Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#121

Post by squeezingswirls »

efdee wrote: post #120
squeezingswirls wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such an overstatement is not honest and doesn't help to analyze the current political situation in Spain, nor helps to understand why the Civil War is a touchy subject. Vox is a far-right party but it isn't a fascist one because they play under the Spanish Constitution rules. Describing PP in that same political spectrum is a bad joke, the same kind you make when saying 'Spain has a disgraceful recent history of anti…

> Can you honestly say that you can't speak freely in Spain? I don't know. Let's ask the imprisoned Catalonian ministers?

First of all, there isn't such a thing as 'Catalonian ministers', and secondly you can't be seriously saying that any politician can't speak freely in Spain.

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#122

Post by guiriduro »

squeezingswirls wrote: post #118
switch007 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unfortunately, the war is still a touchy subject in Spain I find this quite concerning and rather paternalistic, especially when far-right/fascists keep winning elections and the PP still exists. I'm not ignorant of the attrocities but Spain needs to be able to discuss current issues linked to or reminiscent of that era despite it upsetting a lot people. It's suppressing free speech, and Spain has a disgraceful rec…

Such an overstatement is not honest and doesn't help to analyze the current political situation in Spain, nor helps to understand why the Civil War is a touchy subject. Vox is a far-right party but it isn't a fascist one because they play under the Spanish Constitution rules. Describing PP in that same political spectrum is a bad joke, the same kind you make when saying 'Spain has a disgraceful recent history of anti…

> Can you honestly say that you can't speak freely in Spain?

Yes, I believe you can. Where to start? The disgusting re-appearance of political prisoners in Spain, for Catalan leaders expressing the idea that Catalunya should determine its own destiny, while Spanish politicos laughably and hypocritically complain about the same in Venezuela (but to the twisted fascist mind, their political prisoners are just 'criminals' - I'm sure Maduro would use the same justification). The destruction of an edition of the Jueves comic drawing that showed the (then) prince earning a childrearing grant having sex with his wife. A rapper in exile to avoid being remanded for singing about the king. Plenty of other examples.

No, free speech is not protected in Spain, quite the reverse.

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#123

Post by wtdata »

What I find interesting, is the great number of people - specially in the last decade when reading 1984 suddenly became popular - that keeps telling us all that Orwell's works are a warning specifically against fascism and point Orwell's role in Spain as proof that he was himself a communist.

Orwell left quite clear that after having seen both Nazism and Communism in action, he was staunchly against both forms of totalitarianism.

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#124

Post by RangerScience »

RangerScience wrote: post #6
gedy wrote: post #5

I'm not versed enough in political theory to know myself, but why have seemingly all communist movements and governments been so riddled with purges, paranoia, and violence?

I would hazard a guess that it has something to with most revolutions being riddle with purges, paranoia and violence, and then that most (AFAIK) modern revolutions are communist movements. In other words, AFAIK (which isn't far), it's a trait of revolutions, not of communist movements.

So like to be clear, I am not saying that this theory of mine is correct; I am saying that based on my extremely and knowingly limited knowledge, it looks reasonable. So like chill with the haterade, and bring forth the "well, this revolution doesn't fit that theory".

Maybe it's that cultural revolutions are like this, and there's very, very few non-cultural revolutions - maybe only independence revolutions? I literally do not know so like if you know one, put forth the Wikipedia link?

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#125

Post by RangerScience »

nwallin wrote: post #90
RangerScience wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would hazard a guess that it has something to with most revolutions being riddle with purges, paranoia and violence, and then that most (AFAIK) modern revolutions are communist movements. In other words, AFAIK (which isn't far), it's a trait of revolutions, not of communist movements.

Venezuela? Chavez took power fair and square in an election, and then turned it into a communist authoritarian dictatorship later. The modern revolution in Czechoslovakia turned out fairly free of violence, at it was not communist.

Did Chavez's revolution in Venezuela have all the paranoia and whatnot, as well? (I do not know, I am definitely just asking).

Oh, that's neat about the Czech revolution. I know, oh hmm, literally nothing about it. - The "Velvet" revolution? This is super cool, had no idea something like this happened, thanks!

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#126

Post by me_me_me »

squeezingswirls wrote: post #121
efdee wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can you honestly say that you can't speak freely in Spain? I don't know. Let's ask the imprisoned Catalonian ministers?

First of all, there isn't such a thing as 'Catalonian ministers', and secondly you can't be seriously saying that any politician can't speak freely in Spain.

"If ya don't eat yer meat, you can't have any pudding!

How can ya have any pudding if ya don't eat ya meat?"

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#127

Post by julienreszka »

dang wrote: post #102
dangxiaopin wrote: post #54

Just curious why contrary to the usual HN policy of reusing the headline verbatim, the word "communist" was edited out?

Because it's baity. We have enough trouble keeping people from going on generic ideological tangents as it is. The policy is " Please use the original title, unless it is misleading or linkbait. " ( https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html ).

This is exactly what Orwell is talking about in his books. Why are you trying to control our thoughts dang, go find a real job

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#128

Post by southerntofu »

systematical wrote: post #61
glial wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I also believe capitalism will eat itself and deliver us a pretty awesome world a hundred or so years from now I wish I could share your optimism. It's hard for me to believe there will be any future that doesn't include environmental collapse.

That's where we need to police it. Now maybe thats cap/trade, carbon tax, or whatever. Maybe its geoengineering. Remember this isn't just a capitalism problem, the Soviet Unions centralized economy wasn't exactly environmentally friendly. This is a humanity problem. Not many people share my optimism, but humans have been pretty good about surviving so far.

> this isn't just a capitalism problem, the Soviet Unions centralized economy (...)

Despite the label, USSR/PRC can hardly be called communism. They are various forms of State-capitalism: all the institutions (wage slavery, prisons, secret police, industry, propaganda) remain that of any capitalist society.

See "There is no communism in Russia" or "Trotsky protests too much" by Emma Goldman for historical context about why USSR vs US or Trotsky vs Staline are false dilemmas between tyrannic ideologies.

> This is a humanity problem.

Indeed, all empires (or "civilizations") share the same problems. Only by actually changing the structures of power can we try to achieve a different outcome.

Although, it's arguably late to save our planet from capitalists / pretend-communists. These long-toothed vampires will NEVER stop until the last drop they can suck out of it.

Already a million species are facing extinction. Yet it's business as usual. These psychopaths couldn't care less about other people or the planet they stand on. We as humans could do so much better...

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#129

Post by eeZah7Ux »

systematical wrote: post #56
Miner49er wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiosity, why are you no longer into anarcho-syndicalism?

I guess I "outgrew" it. It's fun when you are in high school. I think capitalism works well so long as people can keep it honest. The invisible hand needs a visible hand because two hands are better than one. I also believe capitalism will eat itself and deliver us a pretty awesome world a hundred or so years from now (assuming we police it in the interim). Eliminate borders, then eliminate around one trillion a year…

It sounds more like you never read anarchist writers.

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#130

Post by southerntofu »

systematical wrote: post #56
Miner49er wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiosity, why are you no longer into anarcho-syndicalism?

I guess I "outgrew" it. It's fun when you are in high school. I think capitalism works well so long as people can keep it honest. The invisible hand needs a visible hand because two hands are better than one. I also believe capitalism will eat itself and deliver us a pretty awesome world a hundred or so years from now (assuming we police it in the interim). Eliminate borders, then eliminate around one trillion a year…

> I guess I "outgrew" it. It's fun when you are in high school.

I don't think "fun" is the word for anarchism. I mean, maybe you had a very privileged/singular experience of approaching anarchism from a theoretical standpoint.

But the bloody repression faced by anarchists around the globe is not "fun". Don't get me wrong, i'm glad you had fun with rebellious ideas. There is fun to have in living in the moment and trying your best to fight injustice.

I'm just slightly upset that you would consider what is the only hope for actual liberation for millions of people a simple fun youth concern.

> I think capitalism works well so long as people can keep it honest.

Can you elaborate? How does institutionalized injustice/violence "work well"? Where i'm from in France is pretty fucked up: we're millions living in poverty and facing police/fascist killings and beatings while a tiny elite eats caviar and drinks champagne in the fancy restaurants of Paris. (without even mentioning white supremacy and islamophobia/antisemitism)

> Nations are the problem, not capitalism.

Don't you think they're the two sides of the same coin? How could capitalist inequalities maintain themselves without a central State to exert violence against those who refuse this rule? How could a tyrannical regime maintain itself without sharing some of the benefits of exploitation with a (capitalist) elite?

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