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Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need

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Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need

#121

Post by flukus »

bdcravens wrote: post #60
paxys wrote: post #7

The skills startups want are taught at coding bootcamps, not universities. The degree is called computer science for a reason.

Startups need developers who can hit the ground running and solve problems quickly. Many bootcamps focus on bulletpoints, not depth.

Then their needs are mutually exclusive and they have to compromise somewhere. If they want someone that can hit the ground running then they need developers with experience and not fresh graduates. If they really need someone to hit the ground running they might need highly specialized (expensive) experience too.

Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need

#122

Post by GhostVII »

At least in my program (University of Waterloo Computer Science), there is barely any emphasis on practical things like modern tooling, different roles of a software engineer, etc., with the exception of some of the upper year courses. Instead it is largely theoretical - data structures, calculating runtimes, how the networking stack works, theory of distributed systems, etc. You learn practical things, but only enough to help you learn the theory. So yes, this absolutely doesn't prepare you for a job, but I don't think it is supposed to, it is a university program, not a bootcamp. Instead it gives you the foundation to do more research and learn practical applications of the theory you have learned.

Through internships, I feel I've learned the practical I need in order to work full time, and what I learn during internships is complimented by the theory I have learned through my degree.

So I guess what I am saying is that if you are doing a university program, you shouldn't expect it to give you the practical skills for working, that's not what it is for. Instead do lots of internships if you can, they are fantastic.

Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need

#123

Post by gnusty_gnurc »

davidf18 wrote: post #72
zaphod12 wrote: post #21

I didn't even know schools had 'Software Engineering programs. I've met plenty of Computer Science grads, though. It's truly different. Engineering is more like trade school, Computer Science is foundational. I'll probably hire you with a CS degree, but I know I'm going to need to teach you how to be a software engineer.

My undergraduate degree is in both EE with a CS minor from Illinois/Urbana and EE is significantly more difficult than the CS. This afternoon I met someone in lunch line that had just graduated in CS who said they tried to do EE but couldn't do it. I've seen others when I was in school drop out of EE to do CS.

I went to a state school, and as an EE undergrad I got the sense that anyone who couldn't hack EE switched to CS and anyone who couldn't hack CS dropped to IT or something else.

Clearly both fields are equally complex and challenging, but I got the sense there's something particularly asymmetric and grueling about the EE curriculum.

Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need

#124

Post by michaelbrave »

shagie wrote: post #101
Aeolun wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not if you have to pay them a 150k starting salary!

... Or if they start looking for a new job within a few weeks of starting (the idea of getting 3-4 jobs in the first 2-3 years with increased compensation each step). After getting a few hires that only stay for 6-12 months, its a question of "is it worth it to put in the time to mentor them if they're going to be gone shortly afterwards?"

Perhaps this is part of why people don't stay longer?

Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need

#125

Post by sk5t »

gbacon wrote: post #115
stale2002 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to CMU (econ major/CS minor) , and we absolutely had such a degree. It was called Information Systems, and generally taught people the skills needed to become a web developer. Skills such as front end developement, Ruby on rails, ect, as well as even some mobile dev electives I think. Unfortunately, even though it was one of the best such programs in the world, and turned out graduates who made 80k+, it was st…

Information Systems programs are commonly business degrees. At CMU, it is offered by the Dietrich College of Humanities and Social Sciences[0]. In aerospace and defense, some employers and even the government do not value IS, MIS, or CIS degrees as highly because they are not considered engineering degrees like engineering proper, math, computer science, or physics. In those industries, the way to make up the differe…

With the caveat that this doesn't contribute much to the discussion, H&SS was known as "H&Less Stress" to CIT folk ;)

Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need

#126

Post by shagie »

michaelbrave wrote: post #124
shagie wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... Or if they start looking for a new job within a few weeks of starting (the idea of getting 3-4 jobs in the first 2-3 years with increased compensation each step). After getting a few hires that only stay for 6-12 months, its a question of "is it worth it to put in the time to mentor them if they're going to be gone shortly afterwards?"

Perhaps this is part of why people don't stay longer?

At this point, its hard to point to one being the cause and the other being the effect.

It has also lead to companies doing the "we only hire mid to senior level because the entry level is too flaky" which also alleviates much of the need for mentoring new grads.

It also produces the interviews where people are asking about the passion for the particular domain that the company is in, in hopes that passion will keep them around longer.

That said, if someone is planning only staying for 6-12 months regardless of the company's current pay and mentoring practices, I would agree with the "job hopping came first" as an artifact of the dot com boom days when everyone was trying to one up everyone else.

Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need

#127

Post by nercht12 »

peterlk wrote: post #44
ascales wrote: post #5

I think that at an even more basic level than hard skills, some graduates lack knowledge in things like basic problem solving, abstract thinking or the ability to switch between languages quickly. It's interesting to see how straight-A students who study well and test well don't make the transition from the academic environment to a job.

I have a pet theory about this. Your whole life has goal posts laid out for you. You go to elementary school, get good grades so you can get into honors classes in middle/high school. And you do this again for college. Everything is quantitatively measured. How many questions did you get right? How many days did you attend school? How many extracurricular activities did you participate in? How many hours did you volu…

On the right track, but even moreso of a factor is the personal relations in one's life. A kid straight out of school being told constantly to "go get a job" has trouble trying new things and getting a startup going. They end up trying to please these other naysayers and at the same time trying to pursue their dreams, thereby splitting their efforts and cutting their productivity of both in half, resulting in fewer successes over a longer period of time, further demoralizing them.

Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need

#128

Post by shagie »

gnusty_gnurc wrote: post #123
davidf18 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My undergraduate degree is in both EE with a CS minor from Illinois/Urbana and EE is significantly more difficult than the CS. This afternoon I met someone in lunch line that had just graduated in CS who said they tried to do EE but couldn't do it. I've seen others when I was in school drop out of EE to do CS.

I went to a state school, and as an EE undergrad I got the sense that anyone who couldn't hack EE switched to CS and anyone who couldn't hack CS dropped to IT or something else. Clearly both fields are equally complex and challenging, but I got the sense there's something particularly asymmetric and grueling about the EE curriculum.

(long time back)

I went to a state school and went CS, though I had several friends in ECE (electrical and computer engineering). The difference between the classes we took is largely summed up in:

* They took more math and physics than I did.

* They had fewer CS electives than I had.

* I had more 'breadth requirements' outside of of the core major than they did

* They had to maintain a much higher GPA to remain in the engineering college

* They had classes that involved a soldering iron and hours spent in front of mentor graphics (to the point it was nicknamed 'tormentor graphics')

The EE/ECE curriculum may have changed since then. It probably has. However, (at least at my alma mater) the engineering college is still as selective as always while the CS department unanimously voted that they won't cap enrollment (and instead figure out how to get larger lecture halls and more sections as needed).

Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need

#129

Post by balls187 »

donw wrote: post #75
mreome wrote: post #27

Isn't this just observing the fact that college isn't the same as work experience, and only provides the base skill-set needed to enter enter the industry? "When you join a startup, there’s a lot of emphasis on the design of the application, reusability and clean code, and the ability to conduct and undergo code reviews, as well as the ability to think of and build systems that can scale based on users and geography"…

Candidly, I would say that college does not even provide the base skill-set. In the Real World(tm) of building software, you will work on systems built over years by other people, many of which have long since left the project or company. The level of integration tests, unit tests, documentation, and automation will depend entirely on the culture of the organization. Databases, low-level I/O, sorting operations, and…

> Candidly, I would say that college does not even provide the base skill.

Things may have changed in college, but when I have very young in their career people start with me, one of their first tasks is to book a 15-minute meeting with me.

Learning Outlook/GCal/? and how to find a book a meeting room is base-level skill.

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