Princeton Grad Student And 'Brilliant' Programmer, Dies In Apparent Suicide • Hacker News Board

Re: Princeton Grad Student And 'Brilliant' Programmer, Dies In Apparent Suicide

#121

Post by pjscott » Sun, Jan 09, 2011, 6:52 PM UTC

anon_for_this_1 wrote: post #110

pjscott wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Belief should not be absolute, but a matter of degree. If I flip a coin ten times, I believe that it'll land heads at least once. How strongly do I believe it? As a matter of fact, I'm a little more than 99.9% sure. The probability of getting at least one head is 1023/1024. On more complex things, it's harder (and sometimes uncomputable) to come up with such precise probability estimates, but that doesn't change the…

Evolution is a good example. Why do you believe it happened? Because someone told you. You read someone else's words. It sort of makes sense. You saw what you assume are dinosaur bones in a museum. All of that is faith, and perhaps blind faith. I'm assuming you're not a geneticist, so you probably didn't verify that the bones that were stacked nicely into a skeleton actually came from the same being. You likely weren…

If your definition of "blind faith" is broad enough that accepting things on "blind faith" is actually a good, fairly reliable predictor of possible future observations, then I think you should get a narrower definition.

For example, I accept on "blind faith" the fact that Australia exists. But if I got on a plane to Australia, I have every reason to expect that it will go to a real place called Australia, rather than secretly taking me to Botswana or something. By your definition, a belief in Australia and a belief in unicorns are both lumped under the category of blind faith, which I think is a really silly classification.

All our observations of the world -- even sight, sound, smell, and so on -- are indirect. Your eyes don't see all wavelengths, and they can be tricked into confusing combinations of red, green, and blue as "the same color" as a pure wavelength of light. And don't get me started on the preprocessing that happens before the signals even reach your brain! Will you categorize everything you see as being taken on blind faith as well? Where do you draw the line?

Re: Princeton Grad Student And 'Brilliant' Programmer, Dies In Apparent Suicide

#122

Post by Confusion » Sun, Jan 09, 2011, 7:28 PM UTC

lotharbot wrote: post #96

Confusion wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem here is that these things are not disrespectful for individual Christians to say, but they are inappropriate for Christians 'as a group' to say. The group should stfu and take a long hard look at their shortcomings as a group. You don't get to address this guys death in your religious way, if you don't address the religious ways that caused his death. If there is anyone in the position to get fundamentali…

> "I don't hear them speak out against, on religious grounds, against the extreme, religiously inspired, stuff that gets shouted around by national celebrities" Moderate Christians pretty routinely criticize Christian extremists, just like moderate agnostic/atheists routinely criticize their extremists. Last time Pat Robertson made a stupid comment that I heard about, about a third of my Christian friends on facebook…

  about a third of my Christian friends on facebook used
  direct quotes of the Bible to contradict him

Yes. In the meantime, Fox news is still claiming the position of national spokeschannel for Christianity.

  it's to spend more time actually listening to the moderates.

The problem is that I'm not the one that needs to be convinced by the moderates. The moderates need to take action to reach those, such as the parents of Bill Zeller, that actually need convincing.

Re: Princeton Grad Student And 'Brilliant' Programmer, Dies In Apparent Suicide

#123

Post by sn » Sun, Jan 09, 2011, 11:14 PM UTC

He discusses counseling but not medication. If the latter was never tried, I find this even more sad.

Talking about suicide is a taboo subject. And doctors and others in caretaker positions are legally required to alert the authorities if they suspect someone may harm themselves. If it is discussed, there is a reasonable chance the person discussing it will be sent to a mental institution, the experience of which may be less appealing than suicide.

I wonder what would happen if physical suicide could be replaced with social suicide, administered by something analogous to the witness protection program.

Re: Princeton Grad Student And 'Brilliant' Programmer, Dies In Apparent Suicide

#124

Post by burgerbrain » Mon, Jan 10, 2011, 3:12 AM UTC

anon_for_this_1 wrote: post #120

gbog wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not faith. We agree on the name we give to that spot in the sky, which happen to be "Mars". Then we agree to name "planets" the spots that behave in a given manner, "stars" the other spots, etc. That's just how languages are built. "Believing" that the language work "well enough" is necessary for normal life and intellectual exchanges. To dig deeper, the faith leap is more done when we agree that every night,…

It is faith for _me_ since I've never looked through a telescope and seen that it is indeed a nearer-mass/rock, and not a star as it appears in the sky. Unless you have seen it with your own eyes, you too are believing based on the words of others. My point isn't that we can't verify some of the things we think are true, but my point is that we usually don't. Instead, we believe what we're taught because everyeone el…

It doesn't matter that you don't know it's a planet in orbit around the sun. All you need to know is that little reddish point is named Mars.

People have been 'seeing Mars' since way before we actually knew what it was.

Re: Princeton Grad Student And 'Brilliant' Programmer, Dies In Apparent Suicide

#125

Post by anon_for_this_1 » Mon, Jan 10, 2011, 4:12 AM UTC

burgerbrain wrote: post #124

anon_for_this_1 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is faith for _me_ since I've never looked through a telescope and seen that it is indeed a nearer-mass/rock, and not a star as it appears in the sky. Unless you have seen it with your own eyes, you too are believing based on the words of others. My point isn't that we can't verify some of the things we think are true, but my point is that we usually don't. Instead, we believe what we're taught because everyeone el…

It doesn't matter that you don't know it's a planet in orbit around the sun. All you need to know is that little reddish point is named Mars. People have been 'seeing Mars' since way before we actually knew what it was.

I don't think you're following my line of reason. You and I believe that red point is a planet because someone else taught us that. We don't have any independent evidence -- we simply believe what others have told us. I'm not arguing about the definition of a planet, or what 'Mars' is -- I'm arguing about what you and I _KNOW_. We don't KNOW that red point is planet -- we've simply been taught, and believe it. For the record, I believe Mars is a planet, despite having no personal experience or evidence whatsoever.

Re: Princeton Grad Student And 'Brilliant' Programmer, Dies In Apparent Suicide

#126

Post by anon_for_this_1 » Mon, Jan 10, 2011, 4:21 AM UTC

pjscott wrote: post #121

anon_for_this_1 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Evolution is a good example. Why do you believe it happened? Because someone told you. You read someone else's words. It sort of makes sense. You saw what you assume are dinosaur bones in a museum. All of that is faith, and perhaps blind faith. I'm assuming you're not a geneticist, so you probably didn't verify that the bones that were stacked nicely into a skeleton actually came from the same being. You likely weren…

If your definition of "blind faith" is broad enough that accepting things on "blind faith" is actually a good, fairly reliable predictor of possible future observations, then I think you should get a narrower definition. For example, I accept on "blind faith" the fact that Australia exists. But if I got on a plane to Australia, I have every reason to expect that it will go to a real place called Australia, rather tha…

"a belief in Australia and a belief in unicorns are both lumped under the category of blind faith, which I think is a really silly classification."

I'm not lumping them together. Lots of people that I trust tell me they've been to Australia. I don't have any reason to doubt them. I trust them, so accept that Australia is there. Lots of others also publish pictures, movies, etc so I trust them too. But that's a belief, not a knowledge -- I _personally_ have no evidence at this point.

Nobody I know professes to have seen a unicorn. I also have no personal evidence, so I don't believe that.

And like I said above, I'm not trying to go to the point of whether we can trust our senses, or know whether or not we actually exist or any of that. I'm just trying to show that individually, each of us live our lives with 99% belief (ie no personal experience/evidence), and 1% knowledge (things we've personally experienced).

Let's take the atom. How do YOU KNOW that atoms exist? What personal experience/evidence do YOU have that they exist? We both believe they exist, but neither of us have split one and know for a fact that there is a nucleus in there. We both choose to believe, based on the coherent story we hear from many other sources.

Re: Princeton Grad Student And 'Brilliant' Programmer, Dies In Apparent Suicide

#127

Post by anon_for_this_1 » Mon, Jan 10, 2011, 4:33 AM UTC

pjscott wrote: post #101

cookiecaper wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously, we disagree. Some may do that and call it faith, but people who are serious about faith do not believe without reference to reality or reason. Their faith is also predicated upon facts which they already know -- for instance, almost all people have an internal feeling that there is a God to be found out there. As such, based on their previous spiritual experiences, they will hear some information, believe…

This has turned into an argument over the definitions of words, at its core. One person is defining "faith" to mean "having a belief that significantly mismatches the evidence", and you're defining "faith" to mean something drastically different. May I suggest either agreeing on a definition for the sake of argument, or splitting it into two separate words? You could call the first definition "mimble", and the second…

I'm not trying to equivocate at all. I'm just trying to show that 'evidence' works fine in the large -- at the society level. But it doesn't work at the individual level since most individuals don't actually have evidence -- they choose to believe what their culture calls 'evidence'. Call it faith, belief, whatever. But the individual doesn't have evidence.

It's easier to see when we pick something that the whole culture hasn't coalesced on yet. Like string theory and worm holes. Some people believe there's a worm hole at the center of our universe. They have 'evidence' that supports their theory. I can believe or not, but I'll never know one way or another. 100 years from now, if everyone believes the _exact_ same theories we have today, with the _exact_ same raw data, my great-grandkids will say they know the worm hole exists and the 'evidence' is obvious. The only difference between now and then is how widely those theories are dispersed and accepted. Yet today I (and you?) wouldn't say we know worm holes exist. And my great-grandkids won't 'know' any more than you and I do.

In other words, my 'evidence' is what is commonly known and accepted to be true. Yet I personally don't know it to be true -- I trust that it is. Isn't that blind?

Re: Princeton Grad Student And 'Brilliant' Programmer, Dies In Apparent Suicide

#128

Post by WingForward » Tue, Jan 11, 2011, 12:48 AM UTC

anon_for_this_1 wrote: post #120

gbog wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not faith. We agree on the name we give to that spot in the sky, which happen to be "Mars". Then we agree to name "planets" the spots that behave in a given manner, "stars" the other spots, etc. That's just how languages are built. "Believing" that the language work "well enough" is necessary for normal life and intellectual exchanges. To dig deeper, the faith leap is more done when we agree that every night,…

It is faith for _me_ since I've never looked through a telescope and seen that it is indeed a nearer-mass/rock, and not a star as it appears in the sky. Unless you have seen it with your own eyes, you too are believing based on the words of others. My point isn't that we can't verify some of the things we think are true, but my point is that we usually don't. Instead, we believe what we're taught because everyeone el…

Actually, people in the time of Columbus knew the the Earth was round. That's been in European cultural knowledge for about two thousand years. It was Columbus who was mistaken. He thought the earth was much smaller than everyone else did. That he could sail west to Asia in a few weeks. He was completely wrong. A fool who was funded by a fool.

But you're right, in that they had as much evidence as you have about Mars. As in, with a some hours of observation, you too could establish that the Earth is round and that Mars is a planet and know as much as a 15th century nobleman. All from first principles. You just need to view the evidence.

That's different than religion and "faith". Those don't require evidence. In fact, faith require the absence of evidence.

You can try to equate evidence-based beliefs and non evidence-based beliefs, but they are not the same.

Re: Princeton Grad Student And 'Brilliant' Programmer, Dies In Apparent Suicide

#129

Post by kripssmart » Tue, Jan 11, 2011, 7:49 AM UTC

maxklein wrote: post #59

I've been pushing this idea: "A half-way house for suicidal people" Basically, if you're intending to commit suicide, you simply register for the project, and you get an all-expenses paid trip to Iraq, Afghanistan or Congo or some other really dangerous place. Spend two to three months helping people out, then feel free to commit suicide after that. No counseling, no attempt to talk you out of it, just a chance to be…

good.

But I will say open this registration for everyone (in turns maybe)! Let everyone understand where they are and where the "world" is!

Re: Princeton Grad Student And 'Brilliant' Programmer, Dies In Apparent Suicide

#130

Post by blahedo » Wed, Jan 12, 2011, 6:47 AM UTC

pjscott wrote: post #105

blahedo wrote: post #42

Eternal rest grant him.

Why do solemn events Yoda Speak more acceptable make? (Offtopic, I know, but doesn't this strike you as weird?)

It's not out of the blue; it's a very, very, very old formula in the Catholic liturgy (funeral and requiem Masses and vigils), translated from the Latin "requiem aeternam dona eis". The usual response is "And perpetual light shine upon him" ("et lux perpetua luceat eis").

It seemed appropriate.