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Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

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Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#121

Post by dmihal »

DVassallo wrote: post #66
DVassallo wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany, Ireland, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Austria, and Netherlands are some of the most prosperous countries in the world, and they have an open border with 28 other countries — some of which can be easily classified as very poor and undesirable places.

For example, Bulgaria's GDP per capita is $9,272 and Luxembourg's is $114,340. Yet, there's full freedom of movement between the two countries.

While Bulgaria is part of the EU, it's not part of the Schengen zone, meaning they don't have truly "open borders".

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#122

Post by chrchang523 »

diminoten wrote: post #99
mieseratte wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think you understand what an open border means, and if you're getting hung up on the "legality" of it, an open border would literally make immigration legal. You're conflating the societal value of legal immigrants, which is itself questionable at times (H1-B abuse) with those of illegal immigrants which further depress wages. > "Americans are more deserving humans to non-Americans" and that is xenophobic I…

Poor Americans are not suffering because of immigration, undocumented or otherwise. Undocumented immigration does not suppress wages. Undocumented immigrants would be able to climb out of poverty if they weren't being persecuted by the federal government, so the fact that they can't use services they pay for is a problem, not a solution, as these services are intended to push people up and out of poverty (to the exte…

Singapore's government is widely acknowledged to have one of the best track records in the world, when it comes to considering and then successfully implementing unpopular policies that nevertheless economically benefit the group. And immigration policy is one area they considered with fresh eyes; even the most radical open borders advocates were permitted to, and did, try to make their case in Singapore.

What did they conclude the facts actually were? What is their immigration policy today?

If one of you two is ignoring the facts, there's practically no question that it's you.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#123

Post by diminoten »

mieseratte wrote: post #115
diminoten wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm seriously not trying to take any high ground, this is an entirely practical problem, he will literally ban me if I go too far, he's said as much a dozen times in my 10 years on this site. Totally not a high ground thing, I just don't want to get banned is all!

> so I'm going to stop replying. > he will literally ban me if I go too far, he's said as much a dozen times in my 10 years on this site. Regrettably, it would appear you haven't learned the lesson dang is trying to impart. I hope for the sake of your tenure that you one day find your inner peace.

Haha I am a slow learner!

I'm sorry that I upset you, seriously I am.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#124

Post by snowwrestler »

rayiner wrote: post #73
triceratops wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> New York (second poorest in the US) On what basis? It ranks 15th for median household income.

Median income adjusted for cost of living (which is the usual way of comparing income between countries).

I would not characterize it as the "usual" way of comparing incomes. It's useful in some contexts but the adjustment can mask differences in local quality of life that matter to people.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#125

Post by hellocs1 »

xwvvvvwx wrote: post #50
cojxd wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that our countries are good and wealthy is not a matter of luck though.

The dominance of eurasian societies is very likely an accident of geography more than anything else. You would probably find Guns, Germs, and Steel [1] quite illuminating. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel

Meh, Guns, Germs, and Steel get a lot of criticism to be honest [1]. You can find plenty of counter examples that Diamond does not address.

[1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAnthropology/comments/1rzm07/wha...

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#126

Post by rayiner »

snowwrestler wrote: post #120
rayiner wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You dramatically overestimate how much of an economic difference there is between MD and WV: https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-vwpy8_glsgc/Vi5llZ9ZILI/AAAAAAAAI... . Adjusting for purchasing power, the difference in median income is just 10%. It’s like the difference between Belgium and Australia. On the flip side, there is actually quite a difference between states like New York (second poorest in the US) and Virginia. And…

I don't think I estimated the size of difference at all. Are you suggesting that there is a cutoff below which differences in income don't affect where people decide to live? Is the difference between NY to VA above or below that cutoff? I guess my main point is that we take this freedom for granted in the U.S. and generally folks don't examine it, or consider it to be good, or consider it not bad enough to be worth…

An oversight in your observation is failing to account for the fact that equilibriation processes are slower and less dramatic when there are smaller differences between two things. E.g. dropping ice onto a hot pan is quite dramatic. Dropping 60 degree water into 70 degree water not so much.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#127

Post by diminoten »

chrchang523 wrote: post #122
diminoten wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poor Americans are not suffering because of immigration, undocumented or otherwise. Undocumented immigration does not suppress wages. Undocumented immigrants would be able to climb out of poverty if they weren't being persecuted by the federal government, so the fact that they can't use services they pay for is a problem, not a solution, as these services are intended to push people up and out of poverty (to the exte…

Singapore's government is widely acknowledged to have one of the best track records in the world, when it comes to considering and then successfully implementing unpopular policies that nevertheless economically benefit the group. And immigration policy is one area they considered with fresh eyes; even the most radical open borders advocates were permitted to, and did, try to make their case in Singapore. What did th…

I'm confused, are you talking about this, a paper published in 2013 by the government of Singapore? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_White_Paper

That research you're talking about (with fresh eyes) concluded they needed more immigrants, not fewer.

I just don't understand what point you're trying to make. Singapore's immigration laws are in what way relevant to the US? It's an "island city state" according to Wikipedia, not really at all comparable, but if one wanted to make a comparison, the government of Singapore suggested opening its own borders further, which supports what I was saying.

Did you think I was advocating for a more closed border?

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#128

Post by pilsetnieks »

gambiting wrote: post #117
tonyedgecombe wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was used as an argument for Brexit in our referendum. I'm not sure that was the real reason for the agitators though.

Which was dumb then and still is - UK was never part of the Schengen agreement and has full control of its borders, it can stop anyone from entering as it pleases.

Not really, no. One of the basic tenets of the EU single market is free movement of goods and people. Schengen agreement just removes border controls. UK has the freedom to stop any non-EU citizen from entering as it pleases but so does every other EU country, including the Schengen ones.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#129

Post by rayiner »

snowwrestler wrote: post #124
rayiner wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Median income adjusted for cost of living (which is the usual way of comparing income between countries).

I would not characterize it as the "usual" way of comparing incomes. It's useful in some contexts but the adjustment can mask differences in local quality of life that matter to people.

When comparing countries, as I said, the basis of comparison is almost invariably PPP GDP per capita, not nominal GDP per capita.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#130

Post by dang »

DiseasedBadger wrote: post #55
snowwrestler wrote: post #35

I think the degree to which open borders are a reality within the U.S. is under-appreciated. As a reminder, U.S. states are sovereign entities with their own criminal laws, tax regimes, educational systems, property and contract rights, civil rights, economic growth, industries, natural resources, etc. In some cases their laws are pre-empted by U.S. federal law, but there remains quite a bit of diversity. Despite thi…

It's difficult to express how profoundly misapprehended your comparisons are. Moving into a higher-income area is the last thing poor rural Americans want - and the last thing that would help them. They are already living in high assistance areas - the area assisted by the United State federal government. People invading the US are not looking to be in a high-income area, because that implies a higher cost of living.…

Please don't do regional flamewar, or any flamewar, on HN.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

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