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Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video]

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Re: Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video]

#121

Post by mmcwilliams »

ckris wrote: post #78
mmcwilliams wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure I’m convinced that going into any discussion that prefaces worker organization as “impossible” is entirely in good faith. All industries view worker-related expenses as costs (they are) so I don’t see the exception in this case. What I do see is that a $350-400M settlement was seen by insiders as being short an order of magnitude, meaning that the 65,000 tech workers affected by this wage-fixing crime le…

I guess my comment can be read both ways, but for what it is worth I support unions. It is just that people tend to discuss it like it is a choice of equal difficulty. The tech companies now are so large, and have so much capital and influence that it might take 10 years in the best case scenario to even have a choice to sustain a union. Unions just like any other organization are effective because the things they ha…

That’s fair and I’ll admit that I read your comment as a slight-of-hand anti-union statement akin to the linked Amazon video. There’s a lot of FUD spread about organizing that masquerades as well meaning advice: the company will fight it, they’ll shut down your shop, it’s not worth doing it, etc.

I don’t disagree that companies will fight unionization in the industry but that describes the history of unions and ironically workers are better protected these days by the NLRA and the low likelihood that business will hire armed goons to attack striking workers violently than in the days where large strides were made by the labor movement in the US.

Re: Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video]

#122

Post by CryptoPunk »

cambalache wrote: post #109
CryptoPunk wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(copy-pasting) I'd argue it's only because the nature of film making - with many short-lived independent productions - doesn't give unionized work units the monopoly control they would have in large stable production facilities, like factories, and moreover, due to being cultural work, is very difficult to outsource. For a time all major industrial sectors were dominated by unions. It resulted in America losing its m…

And yet Germany (among others) an industrial powerhouse full of innovation has a pretty strong union sector.

(copy-pasting)

Germany seems to have strong unions and a strong auto industry, but the German economy as a whole has suffered decades of wage stagnation. One outperforming industry alone doesn't negate the broader correlation between restrictive labor laws, and degraded economic performance.

Also, Germany has many advantages in manufacturing that are independent of its labor laws, like a strong work ethic and tradition of engineering, good trade schools, etc. So an argument can be made that it has a strong tendency to be a manufacturing power that is capable of counter-acting the harmful effects of bad policies.

One possible indication that unionization has had a harmful impact on German economic development is if you look at Germany's past compared to its present you see that it developed more rapidly relative to its contemporaries before embracing the social-democratic/unionized-workforce model.

Re: Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video]

#123

Post by mc32 »

tathougies wrote: post #99
ken wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unions brought progress in terms of worker rights, up to a point. What does "up to a point" mean? Like these videos, this makes it sound as if the progress of workers' rights is over, and we've got all we'll ever need. What about, say, "a living wage", which the government's minimum wage law is unable to provide? This isn't done. It will probably never be done.

The thing is not all jobs need pay a living wage. Not everyone works to live. Some people work for extra income and their spouse works for a living. Others work to save for splurge purposes while being supported by parents. Others work for socialization after retirement. Forcing companies to pay living wages for every job means they are more reticent to create jobs which could help take families out of poverty or kee…

Even Bernie came against this reality: his workers demanded $15/hr, you know in line with his stated policy platform. So, he did concede the raise but cut back on their hours.

Now, I’m somewhere in the middle. I think shipping jobs overseas has had a catastrophic impact on wages and jobs (unions can’t protect against this in any meaningful way). Also unions will milk a company dry regardless of consequences. But they occasionally protect against some abuse. On the other hand they stifle innovation in very counterproductive ways.

Re: Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video]

#124

Post by arcticbull »

jart wrote: post #77
arcticbull wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And not locking workers inside factories? Was that implemented as a result of labor-saving improvements in technology? You should look up the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire in New York, 1911, which it could be argued is what kicked off the modern unionization effort. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_Shirtwaist_Factory_fi...

It also kicked off efforts for engineers to build better safety technologies, and for politicians to codify their use into law. A tragedy might grant an organizer an opportunity to make things better at one company, but that doesn't help the working class as a whole. In many ways, scientists and engineers really are the true progressives.

Because of the unions.

Re: Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video]

#125

Post by pianoben »

ckris wrote: post #78
mmcwilliams wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure I’m convinced that going into any discussion that prefaces worker organization as “impossible” is entirely in good faith. All industries view worker-related expenses as costs (they are) so I don’t see the exception in this case. What I do see is that a $350-400M settlement was seen by insiders as being short an order of magnitude, meaning that the 65,000 tech workers affected by this wage-fixing crime le…

I guess my comment can be read both ways, but for what it is worth I support unions. It is just that people tend to discuss it like it is a choice of equal difficulty. The tech companies now are so large, and have so much capital and influence that it might take 10 years in the best case scenario to even have a choice to sustain a union. Unions just like any other organization are effective because the things they ha…

Well... better get started now, then!

Re: Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video]

#126

Post by CamperBob2 »

koshnaranek wrote: post #116
CamperBob2 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct, workers do. Unions don't. They are fundamentally parasitic, which isn't necessarily a value judgement.

So if only the people, the workers produce stuff, and the form of organization like the union is parasitic then the cooperation does not produce stuff as well.

Organization is necessary for large-scale production. It's not necessary for employment at any scale.

Re: Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video]

#127

Post by archagon »

OJFord wrote: post #113
Schnitz wrote: post #67

There's only one company whose recruiting emails ALWAYS get deleted sight unseen: Amazon. Who in their right mind would want to work for a company that encourages union busting?

If you're not and don't want to be a member of a union it's unimportant trivia really.

Let them eat cake?

Re: Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video]

#128

Post by majewsky »

frogpelt wrote: post #95
icxa wrote: post #4

Absurdity of this video aside, but I just wish there was room in today's political environment to discuss pros and cons to unions and non-unions. There are some pretty good examples of unions being corrupt, there are examples where unions work. There are examples where like Amazon says, having a direct relationship with your employer is the best. Nuance is gone which is the biggest loss.

Likewise. Nuance is gone on almost all topics. It's very frustrating. I honestly believe the Internet, specifically places like Twitter have destroyed civil discussion and consideration of alternate viewpoints. Also, I don't think the video is absurd at all. What advantage would Amazon have by being pro-union or pretending to be pro-union? And what advantage would they have by not addressing it at all?

Humans have never been particularly good at considering alternate viewpoints. What's changed is that people holding alternate viewpoints (and unwilling to consider yours) are now much more visible to you.

(Edit: This was meant to sound hopeful.)

Re: Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video]

#129

Post by majewsky »

chr1 wrote: post #25
nyolfen wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

is it pointless to attempt democracy when so many democratic states are corrupt?

Not a good comparison because democratic states are consistently better than non-democratic ones, so we have evidence that democracy is an improvement compared to other methods.

> democratic states are consistently better than non-democratic ones

This statement is so vague that it is not worth debating. What does "better" mean?

Re: Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video]

#130

Post by majewsky »

vinay_ys wrote: post #104
ken wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if I didn't know anything about unions before, the mere fact that all these mega-corps are spending the money to make anti-union videos would seem awfully suspicious. Why would companies have anything to fear, if unions were really so terrible for workers? These anti-union videos are indeed reminiscent of the anti-drug videos. Drugs are unhealthy, expensive, and illegal -- so DARE should be shooting fish in a ba…

These videos have definitely made a lot of people curious about unions.

The cynicist in me says these videos are not going to change anyone's minds. Either you think highly of unions, in which case this will make it even more clear to you that Amazon workers need to unionize. Or you don't like what unions do, in which case the video provides you with arguments.
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