You’re Paying into a Broken System Whenever You Buy Something on iOS • Hacker News Board

Re: You’re Paying into a Broken System Whenever You Buy Something on iOS

#121

Post by scarface74 » Tue, Jul 30, 2019, 3:49 PM UTC

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #87

nerdjon wrote: post #9

>On no other platform would we accept a scenario where the owner of that platform dictated not only the tools developers can use, but restricted the ways they talk about their products and pricing. We would call it unfair, monopolistic, and overbearing. But on our smartphones, it’s just a fact of life. I am pretty sure game consoles have been doing this basically since their existence. None of them allow you to make…

I wish game consoles were open, but I don't care as much because they're single purpose. A PS4 is not designed to be your primary computer. An iPhone, by contrast, will be many people's primary or even they're only computer. What does it mean for our society if a single company has control over what that computer can display? I see this issue as broader than just competition—I think it's analogous to free speech.

So the console isn’t a general purpose computer but the iPhone is? By whose definition?

Re: You’re Paying into a Broken System Whenever You Buy Something on iOS

#122

Post by Wowfunhappy » Tue, Jul 30, 2019, 3:49 PM UTC

wheelerwj wrote: post #104

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish game consoles were open, but I don't care as much because they're single purpose. A PS4 is not designed to be your primary computer. An iPhone, by contrast, will be many people's primary or even they're only computer. What does it mean for our society if a single company has control over what that computer can display? I see this issue as broader than just competition—I think it's analogous to free speech.

> What does it mean for our society if a single company has control over what that computer can display? this is literally every major OS right now.... Mac, iOS, Android, Chromium, Windows.... > I think it's analogous to free speech. what? no it isn't. these are proprietary, private sector companies who fiduciary responsibilities to their shareholders, not government entities.

> this is literally every major OS right now.... Mac, iOS, Android, Chromium, Windows....

No it's not! I can run whatever software I want on Windows, Mac, Android and Chromium.

> these are proprietary, private sector companies who fiduciary responsibilities to their shareholders, not government entities.

I am not accusing Apple of literally breaking the first amendment. I do, however, think their actions have consequences for our society and democracy.

Imagine if side-loading books onto a Kindle was impossible, and Amazon implemented an App Store-style review process for everything sold on the Kindle store. Would you consider that a threat to free speech?

Well, consider what happened when someone made an iOS game about Apple factory workers in Foxconn: Apple killed it [1].

Now, it is absolutely Apple's prerogative to determine what is allowed on their storefront, just as any retailer can decide what to stock on its shelves. However, by completely blocking any form of side-loading, Apple is making decisions about what type of content their users are allowed to see on their devices. That's a problem if the iPhone is someone's primary computer, and perhaps their only computer.

[1] https://kotaku.com/there-was-an-iphone-game-about-foxconn-un...

Re: You’re Paying into a Broken System Whenever You Buy Something on iOS

#123

Post by dwyerm » Tue, Jul 30, 2019, 3:49 PM UTC

vbezhenar wrote: post #43

nerdjon wrote: post #9

>On no other platform would we accept a scenario where the owner of that platform dictated not only the tools developers can use, but restricted the ways they talk about their products and pricing. We would call it unfair, monopolistic, and overbearing. But on our smartphones, it’s just a fact of life. I am pretty sure game consoles have been doing this basically since their existence. None of them allow you to make…

> I don't want to be forced to trust every company with my credit card information This problem is solved with Paypal.

...or Amazon. I have problems with PayPal, but I still trust Amazon to transfer money to vendors. In any event, even if you do trust a company, they may not trust you.

Bed Bath and Beyond had done everything right to capture my purchase: They hosted the wedding registry, took care of the couple's address, and by not allowing me to select "I'm buying this somewhere else" kept me from leaving to where I could possibly get the item cheaper.

But BB&B requires Verified By Visa, and I require my credit card provider to not be stupid about security, so my card was declined. I turned right around and bought the item on Amazon.

Re: You’re Paying into a Broken System Whenever You Buy Something on iOS

#124

Post by lancesells » Tue, Jul 30, 2019, 3:50 PM UTC

swebs wrote: post #81

fhood wrote: post #19

As an end user I approve of the walled garden. I don't mind the limitations on other forms of payment. I think it helps prevent fraud and insecure transactions, and I like the freedom and ease of use that comes with knowing that apps on the ios store went through a fairly substantial review process. As a developer (though it has been a few years since I wrote code for mobile) Apple's tools, documentation and librarie…

>But 30% is really, really high Interestingly, that's about the average income tax rate. I wonder if Apple and Uncle Sam both independently came to the same conclusion that that's the highest amount that they can get away with without hitting the tipping point.

It's not Apple it's everyone. Sell an eBook on Amazon - 35 to 70% royalty. I'm sure there are some outliers but most are right in that range. I think physical products seem to be less than digital ones: Ebay ~10%, Etsy ~5%.

Re: You’re Paying into a Broken System Whenever You Buy Something on iOS

#125

Post by scarface74 » Tue, Jul 30, 2019, 3:50 PM UTC

echelon wrote: post #97

dangus wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, the author just forgot about every game console existing.

You can write a game and all at once target Xbox, Playstation, Switch, PC, MacOS, and Linux. You can do physical releases. You can upload your game anywhere, even provide it for distribution on your own website. Everyone has choice in the equation. App stores are vampiric parasites and need to be dismantled. Either that, or these companies need their phone monopolies taken away.

Even when you do a physical release - you still have to get the blessing of the console maker and pay a fee.

Re: You’re Paying into a Broken System Whenever You Buy Something on iOS

#126

Post by turbinerneiter » Tue, Jul 30, 2019, 3:50 PM UTC

fhood wrote: post #19

As an end user I approve of the walled garden. I don't mind the limitations on other forms of payment. I think it helps prevent fraud and insecure transactions, and I like the freedom and ease of use that comes with knowing that apps on the ios store went through a fairly substantial review process. As a developer (though it has been a few years since I wrote code for mobile) Apple's tools, documentation and librarie…

Apple has a profit margin of 37%.

2017 the App store revenue was ~50 billion, which means Apple made 15 billions from fees.

Their net income was ~50 billion, too, which means 0 App store fees would reduce their profits by 30%.

Not sure if all numbers are correct, but I guess this should give us a ballpark feeling of what we are talking about.

Re: You’re Paying into a Broken System Whenever You Buy Something on iOS

#127

Post by briandear » Tue, Jul 30, 2019, 3:50 PM UTC

CaptainMarvel wrote: post #25

gchokov wrote: post #2

I am happy buying stuff from the iOS store. It's convenient, quick and easy. No objection as an end user.

I’m unhappy because Apple has prevented me from using my phone how I want to. I recognised Spotify’s published complaints against Apple 2-3 years before they spoke out. I vowed to never use or buy Apple Music, Apple Watch, HomePod, and even a new iPhone because Apple were degrading my experience with Spotify compared to their own services. They deliberately created an unfair playing field on their platform in order t…

> I’m unhappy because Apple has prevented me from using my phone how I want to.

We’re you unaware of that before you bought your device? If you buy a vacuum cleaner and discovered it doesn’t toast bread, are you blaming the vacuum maker?

You know what you get when you buy Apple, there are hardly surprises.

Re: You’re Paying into a Broken System Whenever You Buy Something on iOS

#128

Post by icebraining » Tue, Jul 30, 2019, 3:52 PM UTC

wheelerwj wrote: post #104

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish game consoles were open, but I don't care as much because they're single purpose. A PS4 is not designed to be your primary computer. An iPhone, by contrast, will be many people's primary or even they're only computer. What does it mean for our society if a single company has control over what that computer can display? I see this issue as broader than just competition—I think it's analogous to free speech.

> What does it mean for our society if a single company has control over what that computer can display? this is literally every major OS right now.... Mac, iOS, Android, Chromium, Windows.... > I think it's analogous to free speech. what? no it isn't. these are proprietary, private sector companies who fiduciary responsibilities to their shareholders, not government entities.

The First Amendment of the US Constitution is restricted to the government. Free Speech is a wider concept than that.

Re: You’re Paying into a Broken System Whenever You Buy Something on iOS

#129

Post by briandear » Tue, Jul 30, 2019, 3:52 PM UTC

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #64

jordanpg wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are competing in the free market. Users are free to not use their software and there are many other choices. You seem to be objecting to the manner in which they compete.

> You seem to be objecting to the manner in which they compete. I absolutely am! There is such a thing as unfair competition. As I see it, Apple is using their existing dominance to create barriers to entry for new players. I'm free to avoid Amazon too, but as increasing amounts of society move to Amazon as the de-facto web store for everything, how reasonable is it to fully boycott them? Sure it's possible , but it…

How did they achieve dominance? Perhaps it’s because of the very features that you consider bugs?

Re: You’re Paying into a Broken System Whenever You Buy Something on iOS

#130

Post by scarface74 » Tue, Jul 30, 2019, 3:53 PM UTC

writepub wrote: post #117

nerdjon wrote: post #9

>On no other platform would we accept a scenario where the owner of that platform dictated not only the tools developers can use, but restricted the ways they talk about their products and pricing. We would call it unfair, monopolistic, and overbearing. But on our smartphones, it’s just a fact of life. I am pretty sure game consoles have been doing this basically since their existence. None of them allow you to make…

It's interesting that you cited retail. In retail, there's an actual cost to stocking items, especially in areas visible to the customer. No such cost exists on the app store, in fact Apple makes you pay extra to advertise for what retailers offer for their 30%. App stores and retailers are different. There's almost no cost to list an app (for Apple, Google) and yet they charge a 30% fee. Apple, especially, is a text…

So there is no cost to maintaining a digital store, payments, employing reviewers (who actually work for Apple and are not outside contractors), developing an SDK, etc.?

The Mac software ecosystem isn’t exactly “thriving”. That’s most of the reason that Apple is trying to bring iOS developers to the Mac.