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Winnti: Hackers attacking the heart of German industry

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Re: Winnti: Hackers attacking the heart of German industry

#121

Post by odiroot »

hobofan wrote: post #99
odiroot wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is definitely an outlier and not the norm. Look at Glassdoor and LinkedIn. Maybe Zalando offers more but few would want to work there.

Just from the top of my head, you could probably earn well at: Zalando, HERE, Mozilla, EyeEm, Blacklane, MongoDB, Zeitgold, Talon.one, Infarm (just raised a juicy funding round) + a boatload of blockchain startups On top of that, a lot of the bigger SV startups have satellite offices in Berlin.

> EyeEm

Yep, personally know them. But they're in Köln last I remember.

Many of the companies you mentioned (not gonna named not to get sued) have reportedly terrible working culture and/or awful recruitment process (applied to most of them). So maybe the money is compensating.

Re: Winnti: Hackers attacking the heart of German industry

#122

Post by adventured »

klyonrad wrote: post #116
adventured wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The median software developer - out of nearly 1.3 million developers - in the US makes ~$107,000 per year for 2019. A senior developer should be up near $150,000 even outside the primary major tech cities. The top 10% tier of developers starts over $160,000.

You are using absolute numbers to make it look more extreme than it is. 107000$ are 94000€ at the moment. Considering the living cost in the USA, it might still be higher in the USA but not that extremely more

No, the numbers I quoted are correct. If they seem extreme, it's because they are compared to everybody else not named Switzerland. I'm using absolute numbers (what?) because those are the dollar wage figures directly from the BLS for software developers. Living costs in the US are not higher than in Germany. That is only true in the most expensive places like eg NYC, SF, Sea.

If you're in Chicago, Atlanta, Dallas or several dozen other major cities, cost of living is very reasonable in the US. Your healthcare costs are typically either entirely, or mostly covered by your employer if you're an engineer making $100k+. In Atlanta your all-in effective tax rate is under 30% at $110,000; in Dallas it's under 24%. What's the problem?

Re: Winnti: Hackers attacking the heart of German industry

#123

Post by jdc »

PinguTS wrote: post #74
paganel wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The state of the German IT industry outside of a few select places (Berlin, mostly) is what makes me very pessimistic about the future of its car industry. They (meaning the big 3: VW, BMW and Mercedes) apparently still think that building the best engines/transmissions and being the best at putting them all together is all it takes in order to make a modern car, unfortunately I think EVs will be more about software…

Funfact: more than 30% value in a car is software, which is highly interconnected via various type of networks namely, LIN, CAN, MOST, FlexRay, Ethernet. Most current premium cars have more than 10 of those networks and around 100 to 130 ECUs that talk to each other. So much about: they don't know about software. BTW: The difference between IT and automotive aka embedded is that embedded should work even without DevO…

This seems high. Is it that 2019 model is worth 30% more than a 2000 model was at release? Or is it more a matter of refactoring mechanical linkages/interfaces into software?

Re: Winnti: Hackers attacking the heart of German industry

#124

Post by hobofan »

odiroot wrote: post #121
hobofan wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just from the top of my head, you could probably earn well at: Zalando, HERE, Mozilla, EyeEm, Blacklane, MongoDB, Zeitgold, Talon.one, Infarm (just raised a juicy funding round) + a boatload of blockchain startups On top of that, a lot of the bigger SV startups have satellite offices in Berlin.

> EyeEm Yep, personally know them. But they're in Köln last I remember. Many of the companies you mentioned (not gonna named not to get sued) have reportedly terrible working culture and/or awful recruitment process (applied to most of them). So maybe the money is compensating.

> terrible working culture

Might be true for some of them, but for the ones on the list where I know people that work there, it sounded pretty good. In the end good working culture is one of many axis to optimize on.

Re: Winnti: Hackers attacking the heart of German industry

#125

Post by ascar »

tomp wrote: post #107
ascar wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hard truth: It also heavily depends on how good you are. The salaries talked about are usually the top 10% maybe 20%. Like people throwing around Facebook and Amazon salaries. They only employ a small percentage of devs. That leaves at least 80% that earn considerably less and 50% that earn below the mean.

Quick math lesson: 50% earn below the median . For salaries (in general, I've no idea what it's like for developers in particular) the right-hand tail (high performers with extremely high salaries) and the lack of left-hand tail (no salaries are negative) shifts the mean (arithmetic mean a.k.a. average) upwards so it's actually (usually) going to be more than 50% of population earning below the mean.

Well, it's more of a linguistic/english lesson. I meant the median and just forgot that average and mean are synonyms. But thanks for pointing that out.

I actually edited out exactly the same argument that you wrote, because I (and you) have nothing to actually back it up.

Counterexample: if 60% of people earn very close above the average and 35% earn 30% below average and 5% earn (on average) double the total average, then the majority earns above average even tho the right hand-tail gets high. This is just one possible scenario that is not even completely unrealistic.

Also remember that most crazy incomes are not salaries.

Re: Winnti: Hackers attacking the heart of German industry

#126

Post by 0xffff2 »

PinguTS wrote: post #74
paganel wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The state of the German IT industry outside of a few select places (Berlin, mostly) is what makes me very pessimistic about the future of its car industry. They (meaning the big 3: VW, BMW and Mercedes) apparently still think that building the best engines/transmissions and being the best at putting them all together is all it takes in order to make a modern car, unfortunately I think EVs will be more about software…

Funfact: more than 30% value in a car is software, which is highly interconnected via various type of networks namely, LIN, CAN, MOST, FlexRay, Ethernet. Most current premium cars have more than 10 of those networks and around 100 to 130 ECUs that talk to each other. So much about: they don't know about software. BTW: The difference between IT and automotive aka embedded is that embedded should work even without DevO…

Surely a car only has 1 ECU (Engine control unit). It may well have 100+ micro controllers on board.

Re: Winnti: Hackers attacking the heart of German industry

#127

Post by Mankaninen »

0xffff2 wrote: post #126
PinguTS wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funfact: more than 30% value in a car is software, which is highly interconnected via various type of networks namely, LIN, CAN, MOST, FlexRay, Ethernet. Most current premium cars have more than 10 of those networks and around 100 to 130 ECUs that talk to each other. So much about: they don't know about software. BTW: The difference between IT and automotive aka embedded is that embedded should work even without DevO…

Surely a car only has 1 ECU (Engine control unit). It may well have 100+ micro controllers on board.

ECU is abbreviation for Electronic Control Unit in automotive. (And a modern car may actually have multiple ECUs controlling the engine(s), especially if it is a hybrid=HEV, plugin HEV=PHEV or battery electric vehicle=BEV.)

Re: Winnti: Hackers attacking the heart of German industry

#128

Post by thrax »

PinguTS wrote: post #74
paganel wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The state of the German IT industry outside of a few select places (Berlin, mostly) is what makes me very pessimistic about the future of its car industry. They (meaning the big 3: VW, BMW and Mercedes) apparently still think that building the best engines/transmissions and being the best at putting them all together is all it takes in order to make a modern car, unfortunately I think EVs will be more about software…

Funfact: more than 30% value in a car is software, which is highly interconnected via various type of networks namely, LIN, CAN, MOST, FlexRay, Ethernet. Most current premium cars have more than 10 of those networks and around 100 to 130 ECUs that talk to each other. So much about: they don't know about software. BTW: The difference between IT and automotive aka embedded is that embedded should work even without DevO…

I worked for Mercedes Benz. They do a LOT of their software development in the US/silicon valley, and I was very impressed by their process and work environments.

Re: Winnti: Hackers attacking the heart of German industry

#129

Post by mschuster91 »

est31 wrote: post #42
adrianN wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are companies in Germany who pay really well, especially if you take into account cost of living. Look around a bit before leaving the country.

Do you have any names?

BMW, for example. They pay boatloads.

Re: Winnti: Hackers attacking the heart of German industry

#130

Post by hef19898 »

guitarbill wrote: post #105
rb2k_ wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having worked at a German company (in Germany) that creates tooling for that kind of software development. They had a huge smalltalk program that created embedded C code (AUTOSAR/MISRA if I remember correctly). Tests only ran manually and the coverage wasn't particularly high. I don't recall any automations that would have stopped you from saving new code that breaks tests to the smalltalk image. Even though it 'work…

Seems to be true in the UK, too. I've heard bad things about e.g. Jaguar Land Rover. As another comment says, this is probably an issue with the embedded industry as a whole. There are great tech companies you can work for, which usually have a very high standard (ARM seems to be great). Stuttgart/Baden-Württemberg is quite conservative. The real mystery for me was why their engineering pride of doing things correctl…

My five cents because the basic design philosophies are quite different. And also industry inherent arrogance, especially within the so called premium manufacturers.

Bit the the opposite is true as well isn't it? You cannot treat automotive manufacturing like software development. I'd say the first company to successfully blend the two has a huge advantage.

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