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Chaos in Hong Kong as hundreds of masked men assault protesters, journalists

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Re: Chaos in Hong Kong as hundreds of masked men assault protesters, journalists

#121

Post by dorfsmay »

gruez wrote: post #109
dorfsmay wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This make sense intuitively: governments are better armed than the people (militarized police, military). If guns are used in a conflict between the people and a government, the government will crush the people immediately. On the other hand, enough protests and civil disobedience will disrupt the economy and the functioning of the government to the point they will have to react, or resign. I am not American and have…

>When was the last time a law or policy was successfully fought and turned around in the U.S.? Prohibition Civil rights act Roe v Wade Gay marriage Marijuana legalization

Good list! I had not thought of those.

In which of those was the 2nd amendment used?

Having said that, weren't those slow change of the laws? I was thinking more about forceful events like the opposition to the Vietnam war, the yellow jackets in France, or what's going on in Hongkong right now.

Re: Chaos in Hong Kong as hundreds of masked men assault protesters, journalists

#122

Post by koenigdavidmj »

RankingMember wrote: post #54
MadSudaca wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The progressives in HN downvote you, but the truth is that being able to use violence to protect your individual freedoms is instrumental to democracy. Few places can boast the level of stability that EEUU has had in the last 150 years. Many were taken over by tyrants and armed mobs, than eventually chose their tyrant. It's no coincidence that in Venezuela the regime disarmed the people with a law that according to t…

Do we really think that armed citizens would have a chance against the current US military? Weaponry has come pretty far since the days the 2nd amendment was created.

You don’t have to overpower the military with their nukes. You just have to make your region ungovernable without the military doing something embarrassing, or that would make the region of no value. It’s the Northern Ireland strategy.

Re: Chaos in Hong Kong as hundreds of masked men assault protesters, journalists

#123

Post by dayofthedaleks »

gruez wrote: post #109
dorfsmay wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This make sense intuitively: governments are better armed than the people (militarized police, military). If guns are used in a conflict between the people and a government, the government will crush the people immediately. On the other hand, enough protests and civil disobedience will disrupt the economy and the functioning of the government to the point they will have to react, or resign. I am not American and have…

>When was the last time a law or policy was successfully fought and turned around in the U.S.? Prohibition Civil rights act Roe v Wade Gay marriage Marijuana legalization

None of those fights had a Second Amendment angle, except possibly the Black Panthers' demonstrations carrying rifles. Those events instead resulted in California gun control laws being created more than contributing to the Civil Rights Act's passage.

Re: Chaos in Hong Kong as hundreds of masked men assault protesters, journalists

#124

Post by Junk_Collector »

dorfsmay wrote: post #61
wp381640 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Chenoweth and Stephan collected data on all violent and nonviolent campaigns from 1900 to 2006 that resulted in the overthrow of a government or in territorial liberation. They created a data set of 323 mass actions. Chenoweth analyzed nearly 160 variables related to success criteria, participant categories, state capacity, and more. The results turned her earlier paradigm on its head — in the aggregate, nonviolent…

This make sense intuitively: governments are better armed than the people (militarized police, military). If guns are used in a conflict between the people and a government, the government will crush the people immediately. On the other hand, enough protests and civil disobedience will disrupt the economy and the functioning of the government to the point they will have to react, or resign. I am not American and have…

Like, a couple of weeks ago? Unpopular or unconstitutional laws and policies are frequently overturned in the US at the national and state level.

Re: Chaos in Hong Kong as hundreds of masked men assault protesters, journalists

#125

Post by Junk_Collector »

dorfsmay wrote: post #121
gruez wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>When was the last time a law or policy was successfully fought and turned around in the U.S.? Prohibition Civil rights act Roe v Wade Gay marriage Marijuana legalization

Good list! I had not thought of those. In which of those was the 2nd amendment used? Having said that, weren't those slow change of the laws? I was thinking more about forceful events like the opposition to the Vietnam war, the yellow jackets in France, or what's going on in Hongkong right now.

Why would the US population result to armed rebellion when it has a robust and largely functioning method of altering policy?

Re: Chaos in Hong Kong as hundreds of masked men assault protesters, journalists

#126

Post by modi15 »

verttii wrote: post #120
modi15 wrote: post #82

Seems to me this is Tiananmen part 2 unfolding before our eyes. And doesnt look like anyone will come to Hongkongs help. Hoping India will step up and do something. Seems unlikely though.

No foreign power would ever dare to intervene with HK. Every country is simply too horny about Chinese money nowadays

I know. But India can. And India should. There is no one else.

Re: Chaos in Hong Kong as hundreds of masked men assault protesters, journalists

#127

Post by wtdata »

nabla9 wrote: post #74
keanzu wrote: post #42

Excellent analysis here on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20492145 The Chinese and HK governments have realized they've lost the culture wars and public opinion so they've resorted to the tried and tested handbook of authoritarian governments, to create a cycle of violence to create justification for cracking down. This is a provocation. Protesters will now counter arm themselves with similar bats and stick…

Non-violent resistance is an option, but it requires very tough attitude. If people would just take the beating and lay down, like Gandhi-led resistance against Brits did, it could break down the violent strategy.

Tianamen was a gesture of pure non-violent resistance... and it ended up as we all know.

Non-violent resistance only works against rulers that are whitin a culture of respect for human rights and individual freedoms. I.E. it works mostly to protest against Western governments, but not against the Chinese one.

Re: Chaos in Hong Kong as hundreds of masked men assault protesters, journalists

#128

Post by asdff »

nabla9 wrote: post #74
keanzu wrote: post #42

Excellent analysis here on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20492145 The Chinese and HK governments have realized they've lost the culture wars and public opinion so they've resorted to the tried and tested handbook of authoritarian governments, to create a cycle of violence to create justification for cracking down. This is a provocation. Protesters will now counter arm themselves with similar bats and stick…

Non-violent resistance is an option, but it requires very tough attitude. If people would just take the beating and lay down, like Gandhi-led resistance against Brits did, it could break down the violent strategy.

The last time people took the beating and laid down in China, thousands died and the event was erased from public memory.

Re: Chaos in Hong Kong as hundreds of masked men assault protesters, journalists

#129

Post by dangerface »

croo wrote: post #17

There are a few good summary comments about the situation on /r/worldnews like: https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/cg1sh2/chaos_and... What I personally find astounding that the police were pulled out right before the fight, the 999 operators hanged up for the callers and nearby police stations were closed during the event.

The same tactics where used at Tiananmen square, they know they work.

Re: Chaos in Hong Kong as hundreds of masked men assault protesters, journalists

#130

Post by 0898 »

Could one make a case in favour of China's one party system by likening it to Apple's tightly integrated ecosystem?

I mean, people argue that technology works better when one system controls the hardware, the software and the ecosystem around it.

Could the same principle apply to human society? Which is an order of magnitude more complex than a piece of technology.

Again, I don't know if this argument has been made before – or if it's even one I'd want to make. But I'm just curious if this is something people say?

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