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A new book critiques medicine

blogs.scientificamerican.com

121–130 of 198 posts

Re: A new book critiques medicine

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. It's pretty clear, even if the anti-vaxxer lunatics were not wrong (which they are, they are wrong, they are perniciously wrong, in the face of all evidence they are wrong), that vaccines would be a net benefit. In other words, even if vaccines did cause autism (which they do not) it would still be imperative to use them. The alternative to widespread vaccination is much worse .

> No. It's pretty clear, even if the anti-vaxxer lunatics were not wrong (which they are, they are wrong, they are perniciously wrong, in the face of all evidence they are wrong), that vaccines would be a net benefit . Are the "anti-vaxxer lunatics" arguing that vaccines are not a net benefit? When you refer to "anti-vaxxer lunatics", who is it, exactly , are you referring to? Are you referring to specific people ( e…

>> even if vaccines did cause autism (which they do not)

> These sorts of comment lack epistemic humility/awareness. We do not know that vaccines do not cause autism. Science does not say this.

This is technically correct, but it's very difficult to discuss against FUD. Let's try another example:

Do vaccines cause earthquakes? Nah.

Is it 100% scientifically proved that vaccines don't cause earthquakes? It looks very difficult to prove, perhaps you can pick some areas in an earthquake prone country and only give vaccines in some areas and placebos in other areas, and see if the earthquake ratio change. I guess you will never get an approval for an study like this.

So the conclusion is that scientist say that perhaps vaccines cause earthquakes? [What is a good answer here?]

---

It may sound weird that someone think that vaccines cause earthquakes, but some people believe[d?] that playing an instrument in the wrong season can cause big frost. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erke

> Traditionally but not commonly, only adult men play the erke, and it is considered profane to play the erke outside of a ritual context. The erke is commonly played during winter, as it is believed that playing it in spring or summer can bring snow.

The English Wikipedia says "snow" but the Spanish Wikipedia says "frost" or "ground frost" like the ones that can destroy crops.

I know the story because part of my family is of a nearby area, but I guess that most cultures have similar stories.

Re: A new book critiques medicine

#122

Let me extend the query, is "modern medicine" overrated. Modern technology + western like urban lifestyle changed how we live.. and how much medicine we think we need. Walking in the woods is probably as effective as the average anti depressant. Good physical activity too. But we sell that modern life is great and that ailments are normal and that thanks to the medical field we have all these solutions.. that we prob…

> Walking in the woods is probably as effective as the average anti depressant

citation very fucking needed.

Re: A new book critiques medicine

#123
post #95

I've always looked at western medicine as if it was the best car mechanic you can hire, just for your body. If your problem is mechanical, they can solve it. Surgical techniques are amazing. Breakdowns in known processes can be fixed. But if the problem doesn't fit those known processes, isn't mechanical, and you are relying on doctor for real troubleshooting of problems, that is where it falls short. You can fall in…

> But if the problem doesn't fit those known processes, isn't mechanical, and you are relying on doctor for real troubleshooting of problems, that is where it falls short. I mean, you're not wrong, but... No one pays docs to do this. The overpriced insurance that's squeezing you dry pays the doc peanuts for his time on your case. Most docs get allotted something like 15 minutes, all-in, per patient: see you, talk to…

How do I pay a doc for their time? I just sent emails to 35 different PIs this morning trying to find the most suitable clinical trial for my wife. I’ve learned a bit in the process but I’m still funtionally illiterate. Both of the oncologists we are working with just look for trials out of their location. When i ask what else is out there they point me to clinicaltrials.gov and say Godspeed.

Re: A new book critiques medicine

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'Western' medicine though as opposed to what? Nostalgic prescientific systems such as Chinese, ayurvedic, etc don't do anything at all. So yes, scientific medicine definitely has huge lacunae. Given the relative slowness of progress in understanding complex systems science has had in general, they'll be there for a long to come. But it's not as if there's some other candidate 'system' that has a better understanding.

> 'Western' medicine though as opposed to what? Nostalgic prescientific systems such as Chinese, ayurvedic, etc don't do anything at all. That's not really true. Their explanations can be hocus pocus, but their mechanics/drugs/techniques can be as effective as western versions, simply come around by tradition/trial and error/Lindy effect and so on for millennia.

> their mechanics/drugs/techniques can be as effective as western versions

This may be true of some indigenous medicines, discovered by trial-and-error and careful observation over multiple generations. These are disappearing fast, and remain largely unsystematised.

But treatments from the major medievalist 'systems' are different - their very strong derivation from fictional rubrics has resulted in their use being insulated from disconfirming observation (as was medieval 'Western' medicine). I'm not a specialist, but results I've seen from contemporary studies of Indian and Chinese treatments seem to show they don't work.

And then there's the more impressionistic evidence from history. The populations of premodern India & China were horrifically unhealthy from all accounts I've read. Their medical systems did nothing for them.

Re: A new book critiques medicine

#126
post #123
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But if the problem doesn't fit those known processes, isn't mechanical, and you are relying on doctor for real troubleshooting of problems, that is where it falls short. I mean, you're not wrong, but... No one pays docs to do this. The overpriced insurance that's squeezing you dry pays the doc peanuts for his time on your case. Most docs get allotted something like 15 minutes, all-in, per patient: see you, talk to…

How do I pay a doc for their time? I just sent emails to 35 different PIs this morning trying to find the most suitable clinical trial for my wife. I’ve learned a bit in the process but I’m still funtionally illiterate. Both of the oncologists we are working with just look for trials out of their location. When i ask what else is out there they point me to clinicaltrials.gov and say Godspeed.

First, let me say that I'm sorry that harm seems to have come your way.

Second, unless you are extremely rich and can privately employ a doctor like a saudi prince would do, I do not know of any (non-forbidden) way to directly pay your doc for his time. Hopefully I'll stand corrected.

Third, and that's the most important, primarily allocate your money to proven treatment. Clinical trials are not designed to help participants. Be weary of what people try to sell you. But if you've been dealing with the healthcare system for long enough, you probably know all about it already.

I realize that's not very original, but godspeed nevertheless!

Re: A new book critiques medicine

#127
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 'Western' medicine though as opposed to what? Nostalgic prescientific systems such as Chinese, ayurvedic, etc don't do anything at all. That's not really true. Their explanations can be hocus pocus, but their mechanics/drugs/techniques can be as effective as western versions, simply come around by tradition/trial and error/Lindy effect and so on for millennia.

You touched on something there that has been a pet peeve of mine for ages. People dismissing treatments like accupunture wholesale because there’s no scientific evidence for Qi. So what? It’s the effect we’re interested in, not the explanation.

"People" might do that, but science certainly doesn't. Theoretical plausibility guides research, which is reasonable (there's no point in amassing prior knowledge if you don't use it). But empirical evidence is the determiner. And empirical studies of acupuncture have been a mixed bag - mostly it seems not to work, and where it does, sham treatments do just as well.

Homeopathy is worse, but acupuncture is up there as a 'treatment' with a very poor empirical base.

[an aside: I worked for a while in an fmri lab alongside a guy who did acupuncture reasearch. He was the most ideological researcher I've every come across in any field - flatly refusing to accept the validity of any data (even when collected by himself) that didn't support acupuncture's use. As someone now living in Australia's hippy zone, I find this a very recognisable & alarming trait of the 'alternative' health field.]

Re: A new book critiques medicine

#128
post #123
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But if the problem doesn't fit those known processes, isn't mechanical, and you are relying on doctor for real troubleshooting of problems, that is where it falls short. I mean, you're not wrong, but... No one pays docs to do this. The overpriced insurance that's squeezing you dry pays the doc peanuts for his time on your case. Most docs get allotted something like 15 minutes, all-in, per patient: see you, talk to…

How do I pay a doc for their time? I just sent emails to 35 different PIs this morning trying to find the most suitable clinical trial for my wife. I’ve learned a bit in the process but I’m still funtionally illiterate. Both of the oncologists we are working with just look for trials out of their location. When i ask what else is out there they point me to clinicaltrials.gov and say Godspeed.

I'll answer both of your questions, spoken and unspoken:

The first: an excellent question. It's hard to actually pay a doc for their time. We're all up to our eyeballs in the current system, including contracts with insurers that say things like "if this person is covered, you're bound to take what we are willing to pay, this person can't pay you extra to buy extraordinary services." It's not trivial at all to buy a doc's time. That said, the best method is to call their office and ask to speak to their practice manager. That's the person who is usually tasked with keeping an eye on finances, and has enough time and attention left over to hear things like "I need a non-clinical medical opinion, I am willing to pay for the doctor's time for an interview." That is assuming you are paying them like a consultant, and not paying them to provide an actual medical opinion for your wife. The latter gets gutted by insurance contracts (unless your insurer has absolutely no relationship with this doc, in which case, yes, you can pay them for their services. Some docs misread some state statutes as not allowing cash services for patients that aren't insured with them, which is both wrong and ridiculous.)

The second: how to find a clinical trial for your wife. Honestly, our job is to keep up with clinical trials once they're published. Clinical trials in recruitment aren't on anyone's radar - there's no convenient way of finding them (inconveniently: clinicaltrials.gov) and no value to clinicians to read such a list even if it existed. The only ones we are aware of are the ones that, as you said, are recruiting patients at our location. The people that benefit from publishing trial availability most are the pharmaceutical companies that will ultimately reap a financial reward, so they try to reach out to patients directly via advocacy groups and things like centerwatch. So,if I really needed to find one, I'd:

(0) Check www.centerwatch.com

(a) Call major centers specializing in my issue, since they're the ones that most trials will pull into recruitment and/or they're the ones originating the trials. For cancer, that means contacting the relevant physicians at Dedicated Cancer Centers such as Dana-Farber Cancer Institute (full list: http://www.adcc.org/).

(b) Most cancers have patient advocacy groups, and they're often aware of major trials underway for their relevant cancer. For instance, for Sarcoma, you'd check out something like curesarcoma.org (who have a dedicated clinical trials resource page (https://www.curesarcoma.org/patient-resources/sarcoma-clinic...).

Re: A new book critiques medicine

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'Western' medicine though as opposed to what? Nostalgic prescientific systems such as Chinese, ayurvedic, etc don't do anything at all. So yes, scientific medicine definitely has huge lacunae. Given the relative slowness of progress in understanding complex systems science has had in general, they'll be there for a long to come. But it's not as if there's some other candidate 'system' that has a better understanding.

As opposed to something holistic but still scientific. By “holistic” I mean that western medicine divides specializations too much and anything that doesn’t fit one box just falls outside everyone’s field. Generalist doctors aren’t very holistic either - they tend to just treat very common things or refer to a specialist. Example: if you have abdominal pains, you will be referred to a gastrointestinal specialist. Aft…

Sure - agree with all of this. That's more to do with institutions than 'western medicine' as a science. Most science disciplines are similarly imperfectly implemented when they hit the real worlds of politics, inertia, profit, tribalism, etc.

Re: A new book critiques medicine

#130
I would like to make a personal statement to the tech community in view of this thread's comments:

A vast majority of you drastically overestimate the information processing and retrieval of the healthcare system.

We MDs can all see your superb AI/ML results in journals, and yes you can improve things with technology. What we can't see is how we're going to use it. In my day-to-day job, there are a myriad of new-super-devices-that-automatically-do-that-thing but NONE are integrated into my workplace. NONE make my job less painful. NONE make me gain time instead of losing it.

You want to help. Cool, then stop masturbating on the results of your unusable new oncology deep-learning thingy and push for WORKPLACE INTEGRATION of technology, damn it!

Maybe if the tech community comes to understand how it can really help clinicians, things will start to change the way you fancy and we can finally end the age of rote memorization and criminal overtime for MDs.

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