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AMP for email is bad

tutanota.com

121–130 of 161 posts

Re: AMP for email is bad

#121
post #103
post #6

AMP is bad for everything. To be clear, this starts by it not being good for anything. Like on the web the form of AMP used by Google and Cloudflare. Starting with google: AMP does not actually make loading any faster. Google just uses it's search monopoly to make it seem so. When you use google search with javascript enabled AMP results are both prioritized in the listing and pre-loaded in the background. This makes…

> Starting with google: AMP does not actually make loading any faster. Google just uses it's search monopoly to make it seem so. When you use google search with javascript enabled AMP results are both prioritized in the listing and pre-loaded in the background. This makes up the entire increase in load time you perceive. AMP pages not pre-loaded by google are just as slow to load. You're missing the part where AMP's…

Yeah I felt like GP was saying "combustion engines are not actually any faster than horses, they just use gasoline to make it seem like they are". The gasoline/preloading isn't a coincidental factor that can be ignored while judging the thing.

Re: AMP for email is bad

#122
post #117
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>So now email clients need to implement a javascript engine as well as an html engine? Webmail can do JS. Clients using full HTML engines like MSHTML, Gecko or Webkit shouldn't have an issue either. Text-based clients are the obvious exception, and they should still be rendering the same plaintext mail they've always been rendering. Clients can also not implement AMP for e-mail, which I imagine is going to be the cas…

The only MUA where reply is complicated is Outlook because it is still not possible to quote easily. Plaintext mail should not just continue to function. A plain text mail should be default.

>The only MUA where reply is complicated is Outlook because it is still not possible to quote easily.

No, there’s certainly complications regardless of client. For example, verifying the reply email is actually from the user, handling top posting vs inline replies, etc. Lots of these systems work around issues by adding things like “REPLY BELOW THIS LINE” and instead of CCing multiple users, sending individual emails with their own personal reply-to addresses. All in all, I’d be happy to see that mess disappear, for things other than mailing lists where the actual entity is an email in the first place.

>Plaintext mail should not just continue to function. A plain text mail should be default.

Well, I just do not agree with that.

Re: AMP for email is bad

#123
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So now email clients need to implement a javascript engine as well as an html engine? For what benefit to users? At what cost to users? AMP for email solves a nonexistent problem.

>So now email clients need to implement a javascript engine as well as an html engine? Webmail can do JS. Clients using full HTML engines like MSHTML, Gecko or Webkit shouldn't have an issue either. Text-based clients are the obvious exception, and they should still be rendering the same plaintext mail they've always been rendering. Clients can also not implement AMP for e-mail, which I imagine is going to be the cas…

If your only interaction with email is outlook, the you outlook is understandable. But I don't get how replying to an email is "notoriously tricky to get right".

Why do I need interactivity in my emails? Is that what emails are good at?

Re: AMP for email is bad

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would still need to talk to your email provider's AMP cache, presumably, though, unlike a normal email which you download once and then do not need to reach out to the server for again.

I don't think there's a need for an amp cache with amp4email. The privacy concerns that make an amp cache necessary don't apply in the same way, only the security concerns that require a safe html subset. So an imap client could cache the amp js locally, and render dynamic content by querying the sender directly. I could be wrong though, but I believe that works.

Doesn't it reintroduce the issues with senders detecting if their emails were read and where from by tracking requests?

I thought Gmail started caching images from emails and hosting them to prevent that.

Re: AMP for email is bad

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right about analytics, but that's an extremely easy problem to solve - simply disregard stats coming from the search engine bot. In fact both Chrome and Safari currently have a prefetch feature that I think is enabled by default, that's clearly not an issue. For state, I don't see the connection to AMP here. RFC 7231 which defines the HTTP protocol specifically states that GET is idempotent, and should not ca…

Unfortunately I think you're being a little too optimistic. The reality I've seen is that GET is used for all sorts of things, including state changes and irreversible consequences. Analytics could check for useragent (and probably already does), but it just introduces a lot of noise. Plus the other concern is that it'd be a huge privacy issue to have analytics being triggered just by performing related searches.

So what’s your take on Chrome and Safari link preload which are in use by the millions at this exact moment?

Re: AMP for email is bad

#126
post #48

Every thread about AMP on Hacker News goes exactly the same way. It’s annoying, repetitive. But here’s the thing: while I get criticisms about AMP for web, pretty much none of them apply to AMP for email. The author of this article keeps bringing up points about AMP for web as if they have anything to do with AMP for email. AMP for email basically does one thing: it enables interactive emails without allowing arbitra…

"... I actually tend to use DuckDuckGo anyways."

"... I don't even like AMP."

Any idea how many Google employees use DuckDuckGo?

Is it really common, e.g., maybe due to sheer size of the workforce, for Google staff to dislike what their employer is producing and releasing on the internet?

Re: AMP for email is bad

#127
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what's the name of this phenomenon but it reminds me of bass-boosted stereos and over-saturated TV screens. Objectively, from a signal processing theory standpoint, it's not superior to a properly calibrated monitor. But subjectively it seems that we collectively like it when dynamics get crushed to loony-tunes levels. I feel like HTML email is the same way. People think they want it, but in my experienc…

> Ever been forwarded one of these corporate-type emails where people reply all over the place, each using their own convention of color and typesetting and emphasis markers, with bits of "rich text" signatures and images littered throughout? That's a bloody terrible experience. https://www.prettyfwd.com Created to fix that exact issue.

Which is Gmail-only and therefore Google-only. I wouldn't want very sensitive corporate data hosted by Google, so this is a red flag for my use-case.

Re: AMP for email is bad

#128
post #48

Every thread about AMP on Hacker News goes exactly the same way. It’s annoying, repetitive. But here’s the thing: while I get criticisms about AMP for web, pretty much none of them apply to AMP for email. The author of this article keeps bringing up points about AMP for web as if they have anything to do with AMP for email. AMP for email basically does one thing: it enables interactive emails without allowing arbitra…

I don't object to some scripting, I object to emails that can change their contents between views.

Re: AMP for email is bad

#129
post #48

Every thread about AMP on Hacker News goes exactly the same way. It’s annoying, repetitive. But here’s the thing: while I get criticisms about AMP for web, pretty much none of them apply to AMP for email. The author of this article keeps bringing up points about AMP for web as if they have anything to do with AMP for email. AMP for email basically does one thing: it enables interactive emails without allowing arbitra…

I highly agree this is a bad article, but I disagree AMP for email is fine. Outside of the big criticism (email should not be interactive), here are I think the majority of email-specific criticisms I have:

First, AMP email still has all the same problems around CORS[0]. One of Google's arguments as to why AMP should be considered open is that anyone can implement the cache. However, in order for AMP to be secure, you have to implement CORS headers, which means in practice, no, not anyone can implement the cache. You have to both implement it, and get buy-in from every domain to use it for your emails.

Google's working on the URL stuff to allow separate domains to act as if they're the original domain -- that's still something that requires buy-in from the site owner. And that makes sense, if it didn't require buy-in from the site owner, it would be tremendously insecure. But that also flies in face of the idea that anyone can go out and just implement this. It opens the door for Google to just kind of "accidentally" become the major de-facto owner of all of this content because site operators decide to only add them and no one else.

Extending from that criticism, this means that if I implement AMP inside of an email client (particularly in a browser client), there is a pretty good chance that whatever internal caching mechanisms I'm using to keep users safe won't work[1]. For example, I could currently decide to cache CSS and images locally so that an attacker can't change the contents of an image after they send it. I could also do what Gmail currently does and proxy CSS through an internal server to prevent a lot of user tracking in HTML emails.

But I can't do that with dynamically loaded data unless I either break CORS or implement my own cache and get email senders to respect it. And to be clear, the AMP cache is something I may not even care about implementing on the web -- but I definitely care about being able to proxy/cache requests in an email client.

Instead, what I'll be left with for most emails sent using AMP is either trusting the original domain, which opens up many tracking vectors, or tying my service to Google's caches.

These are hard problems to solve. Frankly, I have no idea how to make interactive emails that are both secure against CORS attacks and allow email clients to do the kind of caching, proxying, and rewriting they want to do. I don't envy anyone who has to figure out how to do that. My gut reaction is maybe that's a sign that interactive emails are just a bad idea.

I also have a concern that Google's already shown it's willing to add company-specific components[2] to the spec. I don't see any reason to believe that this won't happen with Email. The problems with branded components inside of an open spec should hopefully be obvious, but it's also kind of hard to avoid them, because AMP isn't designed to run custom code, and in many cases wouldn't be flexible enough without these components. Again, this is a really hard problem to solve, and my takeaway is, maybe the core idea of hard-limiting developers to drag-and-drop components is bad.

I also have a (mild) security concern, in that this greatly increases the potential attack vectors for email clients. AMP clients do run arbitrary code, they just run a set number of pre-validated scripts. I generally assume Google is secure, but I get worried whenever I see new attack vectors introduced; and particularly components like amp-bind make me slightly nervous.

Finally, there's the problem that all of this requires trusting Google. And I know this is an annoying argument that feels illegitimate, but I think Google is fundamentally an untrustworthy company right now. If someone says that AMP for email isn't going to have things like analytics components in the future -- I'm sorry, I just don't believe that.

[0]: https://amp.dev/documentation/guides-and-tutorials/learn/amp...

[1]: https://amp.dev/documentation/components/amp-list?format=ema...

[2]: https://amp.dev/documentation/components/amp-facebook

[3]: https://amp.dev/documentation/components/amp-bind?format=ema...

Re: AMP for email is bad

#130
post #3

And the author completely disregards the elephant in the room. Why do websites slow themselves down with trackers, etc.? It pays to do so. Decrying that without presenting an alternative sustainable monetization model for the web is just pointless yelling.

I could probably make more money robbing a bank today than going to work. Nobody needs to provide an alternative sustainable business model to fuel my desire for sports cars and travel I just need to live with what I can make from legitimate work. Most of the web is either, cheap to run, paid for by other commercial activity, or crap and if it went away tomorrow because people could not pay for it by shoving their cr…

That's one hell of a false analogy you've got there.

Essentially the entire web is funded by advertising; you are way off the mark with your assertion.

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