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About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

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Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#121

Post by scruple »

griffinkelly wrote: post #118
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We’re used to Beijing thinking for the long term. When they rotated leaders, this was largely true. With Xi as leader for life, however, the short-term decision making and incompetent bureaucracies that characterises dictatorships are beginning to emerge. Hong Kong shouldn’t have been a problem. Most Hong Kongers, until recently, identified as Chinese moreso than Hong Konger. The transition in 2047 would have been un…

There's been a stronger identity as being a Hong Konger recently, but my family has always identified as being from Hong Kong. Looks like young people have dramatically shifted in their views. Found this saying the same: https://www.hongkongfp.com/2017/06/21/hku-poll-3-1-young-hon...

The last of my wife's family left HK in 1997. They've always strongly identified as being Hongkongers / Cantonese, rather than just Chinese, and will often correct people who don't understand the difference. My wife refers to our twins as half-Cantonese, so do I and the rest of our family. This whole situation is very unfortunate to me, but as my wife's mother said this morning, the writing was on the wall way back in 97.

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#122

Post by majewsky »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #120
trappist wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the sort of thing predicted by Hans Hermann Hoppe's "Democracy: The God that Failed", the basic premise of which is that short term leaders as found in democracies will try to get as much as they can in the short time they have, whereas lifetime leaders as in monarchies will treat the country more like a property owner would his own property. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy:_The_God_That_Failed

> short term leaders as found in democracies will try to get as much as they can in the short time they have, whereas lifetime leaders as in monarchies will treat the country more like a property owner would his own property The evidence shows the opposite. Political leaders (in any system) want to act in the short term. Democracies simply constrain them. No “lifetime leaders” are guaranteed a life term. They must co…

> Dictators are constrained in terms of backing away from bad decisions. They thus have a bad habit of doubling down on stupid decisions.

I find this to match the behavior of the dominant parties in my country.

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#123

Post by JumpCrisscross »

majewsky wrote: post #122
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> short term leaders as found in democracies will try to get as much as they can in the short time they have, whereas lifetime leaders as in monarchies will treat the country more like a property owner would his own property The evidence shows the opposite. Political leaders (in any system) want to act in the short term. Democracies simply constrain them. No “lifetime leaders” are guaranteed a life term. They must co…

> Dictators are constrained in terms of backing away from bad decisions. They thus have a bad habit of doubling down on stupid decisions. I find this to match the behavior of the dominant parties in my country.

> I find this to match the behavior of the dominant parties in my country

It characterises humans in general. It’s difficult for leaders to admit mistake. Political change generally increments when leaders are removed from power.

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#124

Post by shearskill »

chongli wrote: post #48
tmp2846 wrote: post #11

It’s a bit sad feeling like this level of participation would never happen in the US. I’m not sure what the reason is, but likely a mix of being a highly individualistic society, apathy, distraction.

I wouldn't be so sure. If the entire US decided to gang up on one city, especially a city with a strong identity (New York or Boston) then you might see this. Look at how New York responded after 9/11. Now put yourself in the shoes of the people of Hong Kong. When a group of people come to believe they are facing an existential threat, they respond in extraordinary ways.

The last massive protests that looked like this took place in multiple cities over several weeks. That was leading up to the Iraq war. They were ignored.

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#125

Post by dharmab »

geophile wrote: post #31

How is it they are not fucked? No country that wants to continue to do business with China is going to back this uprising. Is there an imaginible sequence of events that doesn't result in either capitulation or a violent crushing of dissent?

They're actually succeeding- the government has backed down and apologized. The protests are pushing on for the resignation of the Chief Executive.

Keep in mind this new extradition law also applied to foreign, non-HK/CN citizens visiting Hong Kong legally. Companies operating in HK _really_ did not want this bill, either,

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#126

Post by taiwanboy »

I am proud of our democratic cousins in Hong Kong; this is just the beginning. Who knows what kind of country China will be in 2047, maybe there is hope for democratic China or 50 more years of democratic Hong Kong, who knows.

As for Taiwan, Taiwanese people already identify themselves with being Taiwanese. Nearly 80% of people polled identify themselves in fact, in recent polls. Now we just need the older generations to slowly fade away (ones that still watch China influenced news channels). The fact that president Tsai (who is close to our US allies) won her party election recently and has a 10% lead over her opposite party opponents (who are now distancing themselves from China) give us great hope. Our independence is going to continue.

As for the naysayers that say China can simply invade, I beg to differ. China was always going to have problems attacking a well fortified island. But an old, broke China with no allies in the region attacking Taiwan with US backing it is impossible. And as time goes on, Taiwan will eventually declare independence and have the world support for it. That’s the future I am looking forward to

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#127

Post by csb6 »

trappist wrote: post #116
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We’re used to Beijing thinking for the long term. When they rotated leaders, this was largely true. With Xi as leader for life, however, the short-term decision making and incompetent bureaucracies that characterises dictatorships are beginning to emerge. Hong Kong shouldn’t have been a problem. Most Hong Kongers, until recently, identified as Chinese moreso than Hong Konger. The transition in 2047 would have been un…

This is the sort of thing predicted by Hans Hermann Hoppe's "Democracy: The God that Failed", the basic premise of which is that short term leaders as found in democracies will try to get as much as they can in the short time they have, whereas lifetime leaders as in monarchies will treat the country more like a property owner would his own property. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy:_The_God_That_Failed

We've come full circle. I never thought I would see someone unironically support monarchy in 2019, much less cite Hans Hermann Hope as an actual source. Hacker News! A place for hackers, people who want freedom to explore new technologies, disrupt industries, and evaluate other hackers based on their merit alone. God the Internet has gone downhill. Democracy is messy and complicated, but lifetime leaders are not the right answer and do not align with hacker culture at all.

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#128

Post by ww520 »

swjz wrote: post #18

They've made it. The Chief Executive apologized and the government has suspended the fugitive law amendment. That's really a RARE concession in these years because the Chinese government typically doesn't compromise at all under pressure.

Not yet. She needs to take responsibility and step down.

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#129

Post by ww520 »

eqing wrote: post #50

People at both sides think they are legit. An average HKer: I don't trust China's Justice system, which is heavily influenced by their government. I could be sent to China for made-up crime. An average Chinese: Its a shame that HK as a part of China has Extradition treaties with all other countries but not Macau/Taiwan/Mainland (historical law by british). Imagine the same case for Hawaii and US Mainland.

I actually read a comment written by a mainland Chinese to his fellow Chinese, "How many of you truly trust the justice system inside the country? We've suffered under it enough already. Why subject others under it?" It was highly liked.

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#130

Post by ww520 »

tmp2846 wrote: post #11

It’s a bit sad feeling like this level of participation would never happen in the US. I’m not sure what the reason is, but likely a mix of being a highly individualistic society, apathy, distraction.

Because we can do it every 4 years while they have to bottle it up for a long time
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